By the President’s definition, Social Security is bust because it can only pay about 80% of promised benefits with dedicated revenues in 2053, after the trust fund is exhausted in 2052, and only 75% of promised benefits in 2062 (using the CBO forecast).
“If you’re 20 years old, in your mid-20s, and you’re beginning to work, I want you to think about a Social Security system that will be flat bust, bankrupt, unless the United States Congress has got the willingness to act now,” Bush said.
Right now, though, the non-Social Security part of the government has dedicated revenues sufficient to cover only about 70% of its expenses. Revenues in 2004 were around 11.3% of GDP, expenditures were about 16.25% of GDP (including interest payments on the Social Security trust fund), for an overall deficit in the non-Social Security part of government of a bit under 5% of GDP. Put differently, non-social security govenment spending exceeded non-social security revenue by over 40%.
(One note: I used the CBO’s data for FY 2004, and the Trustees’ data for calendar year 2004 for Social Security, I could not quickly find the CBO’s forecast for FY 04 Social Security payroll tax revenue. The resulting error is tiny).
On the external side, revenues (exports) only cover 65% of our current spending (imports). By my calculations, based on data through November and conservative estimates for December exports and imports, end 2004 exports will be around 9.75% of GDP, imports around 15.05% of GDP. Our current trade deficit of 5.3% of GDP is equal to 54% of export revenues.
In other words, using the President’s criteria for Social Security, we are already bust.
I know I have my CD player stuck on repeat, but the current cash flow gap of the government, and the large and growing gap between exports and imports and resulting rapid external debt accumulation, are immediate, serious problems — problems worthy of attention at the highest levels of government.
Instead, we are talking about “reforming” the one part of government that has a cash flow surplus, and the “fix” involves, more or less, getting rid of the cash flow surplus, so the government has to borrow more in the markets. Under the Commission Model 2 reform plan, the Social Security system would need to draw on general revenues in 2006, rather than 2019; the trust fund would run out in 2038 rather than 2052, and benefits would still exceed revenues until 2050 (the plan solves this with “transfers” from general revenues — not repayment of trust fund bonds, simple transfers). All my numbers come from the CBO. In 2025, the gap between payroll tax revenues and benefits would be 0.64% of GDP if we did nothing, and 1.04% of GDP under the Commission’s plan 2 (to be clear, in both cases, the gap is covered by the trust fund — i.e. past payroll tax surpluses; only after 2036 does the Commission’s plan 2 rely on simply transfers from general revenues). The cash flow savings (if they ever occur) don’t start in 2050.
Another rant. Talk of the social security’s “3.7 trillion deficit” (over 75 years), or its “$10 trillion deficit” (over a longer period) is beginning to frustrate me for the following reason: present value accounting is a powerful tool, but it does not tell you anything about when the deficits occur in time. The underlying gap between revenues (including revenues from the trust fund) and expenditures that gives rise to these present value deficits does not open up until 2052 (according to the CBO). In 2055 the gap is 1.6% of GDP, in 2075 it is 1.8% and so on.
Don’t get me wrong, I do worry a bit about 2055. But I worry a lot more about how we are going to get from 2005 to 2015. The economic shifts required to bring our trade deficit down to zero — something that has to happen if we want to avoid an external debt to GDP ratio that would reach something like 85% of GDP in 2015 (85% assumes that the trade deficit stabilizes at around 5% of GDP but the current account rises as a percent of GDP because of rising interest payments) — are massive, and will occur when the government does not have much fiscal ammunition stored up to cushion the adjustment process.
There are other cash flow gaps out there that if extended off into the infinite future have a much higher present value that the deficit in the Social Security system, and they — unlike the Social Security system’s NPV deficit — are likely to cause us trouble in the near future.
Brad,
I think that you are missing a key point. The SS system is broken and we can FIX it. It is actually something we as Americans can fix without the rest of the world (unlike the current account deficit that you typically opine about). In doing so it lays bare a number of other problems that then can addressed in a direct manner.
To assert that the current positive balance is real is plain foolishness. The account is empty. We are spending the money right now and then some. In fact we borrow from abroad to keep spending (as you have documented very well). This is just the starting point to address a host of other problems. In addition, the benefits that will be offered to future generations of retirees is a joke.
The next issue I have is the logic behind the resistance to fixing SS. You acknowledge that it is broken but like Krugman, DeLong rationalize away a problem that is real and substantive because there are other large problems (all of even more intractable then SS) . With that logic we shouldn’t solve any problem. Please. Unlike the current account deficit which is far more complex, the SS system can be fixed. Bush cannot control the key drivers of the deficit (e.g., consumer preferences for foreign goods) but he and the Congress can change SS. In addition, the president is not responsible for the tastes of Americans.
Finally, I’m not saying that Bush’s plan is the right one and while I have a number of issues with the plan, it’s time to fix SS.
The reluctance to ‘fix’ Social Security on a priority basis at the moment is that typically in this Administration when we get a ‘new crisis’ we are presented a ‘solution’ that is rushed through that favors some particular powerful group of supporters of this Administration in the shorter term.
There will be a natural reaction now against any problem presented by the current Administration in this way, particularly while they control both houses of Congress.
There is a move to delay fixing this particular problem, because it is a long term situation, and some of the elements of the problem are based on assumptions that may or may not be correct. Further, we just ‘fixed’ Social Security and were assured that it was on a sound basis not ten years ago.
There is also some concern that Social Security, like other initiatives, is a smoke screen to take our minds off other initiatives and problems that might be more pressing to the nation’s agenda. The reluctance to discuss priorities rationally is a hallmark of this Administration.
So, we are seeing a reaction that is similar to the initial reactions to the proposal that we must deal with Iraq, and we must do it now.
It seems very logical to me, and I hope we get this discussion and consider a range of issues including the tax cuts and the budget deficit and fighting two wars. Now perhaps is the time to fix a number of problems.
p — by all indications, the plan to “fix” social security that the President will put on the table (and which will define the debate) will make what I consider to be a more pressing problem (the government’s overall deficit) worse. It takes revenues out of the system for day one, and the benefit cuts — to the extent congress goes along with benefit cuts — don’t kick in for some time.
I worry that a flood of new US treasuries will hit the market just when Asian demand for treasuries starts to dry up.
brad
it makes one wonder where we are going with this. surely the president’s economic advisor’s understand the enormous current debt we will have to assume to support this plan. They are not fools.
We seem to be hellbent on pushing the value of the dollar and our ability to issue debt to the limit. To what end? Do we see the end of the dollar as the reserve currency coming and wish to run up the tab as aggressively as possible before that occurs?
These are truly interesting economic times. I can’t recall when I have seen in the past 50 years a US government so intent on running up the debt with an almost defiant abandon.
I believe the plan is to cut taxes as much as they can while second derivative of SS remains positive.
Get as much of the damage done now, taking on debt wherever possible, particularly if it can either buy votes or meet tax cutting objectives). Any debt incurred now will limit government’s ability to do anything later.
Is it coincidence that the Estate tax is scheduled to phase out about the year the SS surplus peaks? I think not.
BINGO! It was high time to use consistent criteria across these issues (Social Security v. General Fund v. Current account v. Bartlett’s Medicare Mess). I did a gentle version of this re the Bartlett comparison of #1 v. #4 – but this was the big enchilanda. And so well served up!!!
Strange days indeed.
In the last two years the US dollar (DX trade weighted) and the SP500 have an almost perfect inverse correlation, with an r-squared adj of about 87 percent.
Its so good as to be almost uncanny lately. Dollar down stocks up. Stocks down dollar up.
I’ve put the analysis forward on other forums and showed how when you add the ten year yield it jumps to 90 percent. But no one can explain why, except to doubt it will last because of the strong positive historic correlation between stocks and the dollar which makes more sense theoretically.
Just an odd and interesting time to be an economist.
BTW – Max Sawicky has a variation on this theme as he gently hammers Voxbaby and Victor of Dead Parrots, which has me thinking on a business finance way of tying all this together. Give me a week or so as it will take me a while to do all those wonderful blogs justice in one simple example. As usual – between Brad & Max, you two have me really thinking.
Bush does not have a plan to “fix” SS – he has a plan to justify continued existing tax cuts, rather than allowing them to expire.
We have a structural operational deficit problem short-term – which could be fixed (without foreign help) – if someone had to political courage to do so – rather we create a crisis that may come due in 40 years to avoid to one staring us in the face.
It would seem as though a ‘redefining’ of Social Security is in order, or perhaps being attempted.
Is Social Security a ‘savings plan?’ A universal pension plan? A safety net for exceptions?
This is the kind of ordered discussion that would need to be put forward before we can make any real decisions about it.
If it is a savings plan, why is it different from IRA’s? Because employer’s contribute? Why do they?
Is it more of a tax, thought to provide some minimal support for a worker who might lose or be otherwise without a pension, or who become disabled? Is this not consistent with its disability aspects?
If so, why provide benefits to those who clearly do not need them? Do we pay unemployment benefits to the employed, especially to employed CEO’s?
These are the types of questions that never get asked, and are the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
If the aim is to secure the social security scheme, then the solution should be : raise contributions, reduce payments, or postpone retirement age …
The privatisation of social security is something completely different.
1 it create transition costs (those saving for themselves are not contributing for others anymore), thus increasing debt now to reduce it (you can bet on it !) in the future
2 it bets on the asset market against wage increases.
Well that’s a hell of a bet, because
1 asset markets have long wave in prices (returns). Right now we have entered a long period of falling prices. 1915-29 up, 29-45 down, 45-60 up, 60-80 down, 80-2000 up, 2000-2020 should be down.
2 Wages are going to be on the rise, rise faster than GDP.
Wages have lagged behind productivity growth, cf the numbers I posted for the last 20 years.
This is about to reverse.
My bet is that the way it will reverse is through falling GDP… I hope I’m wrong, but the other solution implies massive strikes. I don’t see anyone starting right now. WHile I can really see bankrupcies ahead.
Jesse… I’m surprised with your post.
I’ve always thought it was highly rational for USA stock markets to move in opposition to dollar exchange rate.
That’s what the market does.
When the dollar is down, foreign investors realise they can get more profit out of the US stock markets, they invest, this moves asset prices up.
When the dollar is up, the opposite works.
You talk about a dollar trade weighted. What’s the aim ? I suppose that’s because you live in the old days where physical trade mattered.
Of course on long trends, the dollar going up is a sign of an improving economy, better terms of trade … It should be related to increases in GDP and profits.
But the moves that you talk about are short term ones.
If you look at the relation between employment and stock prices it is the same. In the long run, profitable companies are those who hire and grow. However in the short run, when managements bring in a cost reduction-profit boosting plan, stock prices move up.
WHat’s more, in an increasingly financial world, decreasing the workforce is seen more and more as a positive sign, although historically it is negatively correlated with profit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/14/opinion/14krugman.html
The British Evasion
By PAUL KRUGMAN
We must end Social Security as we know it, the Bush administration says, to meet the fiscal burden of paying benefits to the baby boomers. But the most likely privatization scheme would actually increase the budget deficit until 2050. By then the youngest surviving baby boomer will be 86 years old.
Even then, would we have a sustainable retirement system? Not bloody likely.
Pardon my Britishism, but Britain’s 20-year experience with privatization is a cautionary tale Americans should know about….
In Europe, a Shift: Euro Crisis? What Euro Crisis?
By MARK LANDLER
FRANKFURT – Europeans, many of whom worked themselves up about the swooning dollar and the stampeding euro last year, suddenly seem to have mellowed, as the dollar has rebounded in recent weeks.
Public and private comments by central bankers and other officials here have been noticeably more relaxed since the beginning of January, when the dollar reversed its relentless decline against the euro – even though economists caution that underlying trends have not changed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/14/business/worldbusiness/14yuan.html?pagewanted=all&position=
A Chinese Revaluation May Not Help U.S.
By KEITH BRADSHER
GUANGZHOU, China – Nearly the size of an old station wagon, a bright orange machine here mashes plastic pellets into rows of six-inch-long blue clips for hospitals across the United States. Pan Guotao, a 29-year-old worker from a village in northern China, sits on a plastic stool next to the machine and wields a straight razor to slice apart the clips, which are used to hold ice packs in plastic sleeves.
It looks like a simple operation, but it lies at the heart of the American trade deficit with China.
On Bloomberg, Caroline Baum seems to believe that buying used stocks from ohters (e.g., insiders cashing out their options, as they reportedly did last year to the tune of $49.2 billion net (http://www.gloomboomdoom.com/marketcoms/mcdownloads/050107.pdf)) constitues real investment, and buying US Treasuries doesn’t:
…
““Shifting the ownership of these assets from the government to individuals does nothing to add to the pool of savings available to finance investment,” says Doug Lee, …
“That’s how most economists see it. Financing the transition by borrowing is a wash in terms of the effect on national savings, at least from an accounting perspective. Someone — individuals, businesses or the government — has to cut back on his spending in order for savings to increase.
“There’s another way to look at it, however. Forget the voodoo accounting the government uses, … In the real world, there is no saving going on now under the Social Security system. It’s a transfer plan, not a savings plan.
…
“Under a privatized system, individuals would be forced to save some portion of their income in a private account. We go from a system where nothing is saved to one in which individuals save. …
“Private accounts, invested in diversified mutual funds, would drive up the price of equities and drive down the cost of capital. That means more funds available for investment, more productive capital, faster productivity growth and a higher standard of living.”
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_baum&sid=aFGcetUcNt0c
Meanwhile, also at Bloomberg, Susan Antilla describes the reality of much private investment:
…
” “You will never outlive this money,” broker Jeffrey Sweitzer told Falls and her husband during a meeting in his office in March 2000. And he added during the conversation, “I can generate more take-home income than what you are taking home right now.” …
…
“Falls and her husband said they had $933,000 in retirement funds when they opened their Salomon Smith Barney account, but left as unhappy customers with $440,000.
…
““They said in the depositions that we were never promised 12 percent and it was hypothetical,” said Smith, …” … “But I based my retirement on 12 percent.”
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_antilla&sid=aWSSo2SAXajg
there is a school of thought out there that says the way to cut the deficit is for China to devalue the renminbi to say 12. according to that line of thought, the US is going to import lots from China no matter what, so why not get things even more cheaply (in $ terms). Same import volumes as now, but rather than costing $200 billion, it only costs $150 billion …
I don’t think it works over time though. The range of products China produces will expand, imports will go up, as the incentives will all favor investment (both by Chinese and MNCs) in China as a platform for global exports. To change incentives — to convince Chinese investment to go into production intended to meet Chinese demand, and US/ others to invest in the US as an export platform, relative prices need to change.
But if the change is only 5-10%, I agree, it will not do much — the change needs to be much bigger. The euro went from 85 to 1.30 + …
Xie argues a chinese revaluation would just hurt the US, b/c the US would end up paying more for the same imports, and all the disruption would hurt China. In the short-run, on the import side, he is right: with the J curve, a 40% reveluaution might take our import bill up to $280 billion … ugly. Same volumes, higher prices.
Over time, though, the revaluation would lead to an increase in Chinese purchasing power, more imports (whether from the uS or the world, etc). Or to pick up on one of Billmon’s many good points, China could buy the same amount of oil with fewer exports, leaving more exports free to buy other goods. And incentives to locate production for the US and other markets in China would fall.
Much more later, probably over the weekend. I disagree with Xie profoundly. Just as it was easier to correct Argentina’s overvalued peso through devaluation than deflation, it will be easier for china to correct its real undervaluation through a revaluation than through inflation … and better for the world in the long run too.
“Just as it was easier to correct Argentina’s overvalued peso through devaluation than deflation, it will be easier for china to correct its real undervaluation through a revaluation than through inflation … and better for the world in the long run too.”
Good grief, yes yes yes. The pain of the deflation-depression in Argentina was profound. The Peso-dollar peg should have been changed or dropped, rather than the economy sacrificed. The lack of understand what workers were suffering in Argentina as austerity was used to hold the peg is more than sad.
Though Fed Governor on Governor warns that they will not hesitate to raise interest rates more rapidly than before in this cycle, long term Treasury interest rates hover about 4.2%. Talk about a tame bond market…
Actually, it is mistaken to equate the ease of correcting overvaluation with deflation and the ease of correcting undervaluation with inflation.
Inflation is just about always easier than deflation. Nobody sees their nominal wage go down. Producers are always happier and quicker to raise their output price than lower it. Inflation’s real problem isnt that it is hard to do, it is that it is hard to stop once started. Deflation is hard to even get started and can take years to accomplish. The classic example is the UK after WW I.
This is particularly true in the Chinese case where their economy has been looking like it was overheating anyway. So no, they are not just the same at all.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rvd_d/ho_1999.222.htm
Portrait of Nicolas Trigault in Chinese Costume
Peter Paul Rubens (Flemish, 1577-1640)
Thought you would enjoy this
Steve, alas, if one country (China) has an undervalued currency that can be corrected through inflation, another country has an overvalued currency, and its real overvaluation. And if an exchange rate parity is fixed, deflation in the country with the overvalued currency is one way the real exchange rate adjusts …
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/14/business/14norris.html
FLOYD NORRIS
U.S. Tech Exports Slide, but Trash Sales Are Up
Who says the United States cannot compete? Trade statistics may indicate the country is slipping in technology, but we’re still tops in trash.
In the late 1990′s, those who counseled Americans not to be worried about the growing trade deficit pointed to “advanced technology products” – a category tracked by the government that reflects what it calls leading-edge technologies. The United States was running a sizable trade surplus in that area, and shipments of those products were rising much more rapidly than other exports.
All that has changed. In November, the United States had a record trade deficit of $5.8 billion in advanced technology products. For the most recent 12 months, the deficit was $36.9 billion, also a record.
And where is the strength? The trade surplus in what the government calls “scrap and waste” is rising.
“China could buy the same amount of oil with fewer exports, leaving more exports free to buy other goods.”
If the dollar goes down, oil (in dollar terms) will probably go up. In the end China will buy the same amount of oil for (roughly) the same amount of exports.
DF
Stocks always move up when the dollar is falling because foreigners are snapping up bargains only on Larry Kudlow’s planet. Actually in Larry’s world stocks always move up.
“Trade weighted dollar” is just the DX, the usual measure of the dollar against a basket of currencies. One might use the dollar/euro or dollar/gold and achieve roughly the same results.
Trade doesn’t matter anymore. Right! We don’t need no stinking trade, especially old era physical things.
Yikes!
Brad
I wasnt arguing with the analytical truth of your statement. My point was that in the real world a deflation is harder to do than an inflation. China “needs” to inflate to get a real depreciation – that’s not hard to do since they already have inflationary tendencies and in political terms is also easy because politicians (even communists) wake right up and smile when you tell them they need to spend money faster. Deflation is typically very very painful since it almost inevitably means recession or depression. It is also harder to engineer politically since you have to get the politicians to quit spending as much as they already are. Ask yourself this – Which is more likely? That China’s leaders will do what is needed to allow inflation or that US politicians will quit spending money and raise taxes? (Yes, the Fed will have its role too but again to underscore my point, a deflation engineered by the Fed raising rates enough to cause deflation would be very painful. Very)
sk
China’s leaders are not going to allow inflation to increase from here. This is a leadership that has been adept at seeting the stage and sustaining a transforming growth, and they will not risk that growth to settle a foreign exchange dilemma. Also, remember we need China as a strategic “partner” and while China will surely bargain over economic issues she will not be pushed.
http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Late+Breaking+Commentary/EW/2005/FF_Jan_05.htm
Fed Focus
Paul McCulley | January 2005
Shades of Irrational Exuberance
So far, the Fed has chosen to honor its duty to pursue full employment in America, underwriting the risk – repeat, risk! – that foreign official financing of America’s current account deficit becomes less agreeable. I firmly – very firmly! – believe the Fed has made the right choice, even as I respect others that feel differently.
I do not view foreign official investors in America as either strangers or acting out of kindness, but rather people we know who are acting in their own national interest: doing the only thing they can do to support their job creation, unless and until they discover the joys of more robust domestic demand growth.
In contrast, I’ve long worried – much more than most! – about a different risk arising from current global circumstances, in which America must party in order for the world’s party staff to find employment: the risk of asset price bubbles, which ineluctably become asset price busts.
Indeed, I’ve long believed that asset price bubbles are not just a risk, but also a virtual certainty stemming from current global circumstances.
sk:
“Deflation is hard to even get started …”
“Deflation is typically very very painful …”
Back in the bad old days of the gold standard, deflation was the normal condition. If money stock growth is constrained by how fast we mine gold, while rising productivity increases output at a greater rate, prices must fall. From 1800 to 1900, the general price level in the US dropped by about 50%, though gold finds in Australia, California, the Yukon and South Africa are said to have doubled the world’s supply. (Can anyone post the general wage level change?)
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761570498___6/Gold.html
Deflation is painful only if you’ve borrowed money at an effective interest rate exceeding the rate of profit you’re able to make from its use. If you have net savings, it’s not a bit painful — their buying power rises, and you don’t pay taxes on illusory income. Believe it or not, there are people in this world — even in the US(!) — who have net savings.
“Even though every economist and pension accountant, using widely-accepted pension acocunting principles, see a present-value unfunded deficit of $3 trillion (that’s in today’s dollars) over a 75 year horizon, and $10 trillion over a longer horizon.”
This isn’t true. It is not, as your comment suggests, simply banging in certain future cash flows and actualizing to get the answer of $3 trillion dollars. The future cash flows are highly uncertain, and depend on economic and social parameters such as annual net immigration and productivity (see http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TR/TR04/II_assump.html#wp94905). These produce an estimate of GDP growth. As I understand it, if you assume productivity growth just a tad higher than 1.6% a year (which is used in the middle forecast) then Social Security will be just fine for another century or so.
“The logic that the deficits are far off and, therefore irrelevant, is the same logic that got the car companies into their current mess.”
Well actually I think what really got the car companies into their current mess was that they put their money into the stock market. In the 90s they took the gains and published them as profits and gave them away to investors. Once the stock market tanked, the money evaporated and left them with a huge hole to fill.
But I’ll grant you that you do want a semblence between future pay-out and current intake. For me that means either you decrease benefits or increase taxes (in order to put more money into the Trust Fund, so the General Fund borrows from there rather than borrowing from China and Japan via Treasury Bonds).
Possibly I am not clever enough to understand, but I find no problem with Social Security financing if economic growth continues at historically sustained levels. If growth is slower, the system will be sound with minor adjustments to payroll taxes. What I find especially troublesome is a wish to cut Social Security benefits to provide for private investment accounts, or a thought that a dramatic increase in debt now for private accounts will be dismissed because there might might might be meaningful gains to the accounts in future decades.
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8997
February 2005
How has Britain’s privatization scheme worked out? Well, today, they’re looking enviably upon Social Security.
By Norma Cohen – American Prospect
Britain’s experiment with substituting private savings accounts for a portion of state beneï¬ts has been a failure. A shorthand explanation for what has gone wrong is that the costs and risks of running private investment accounts outweigh the value of the returns they are likely to earn. On average, fees and charges can reduce pension lump sums by up to 30 percent on retirement. The nation’s savings industry, which sells those private accounts, has already acknowledged this. Which brings us to irony No. 2: Just as the United States prepares to funnel untold billions to its private sector for the management of private accounts, back in 2002, many U.K. insurance companies, mindful of tough new rules against giving bad advice, began to write to their customers urging them to consider abandoning their private savings and returning to the state pension system — something hundreds of thousands of Britons have done already.
bill — i do think the US government budget should roughly balance over the economic cycle (i.e. no or only very small structural deficits), and given that we are at war and that is putting real pressure on the budget, it is hard for me to see how that can be done with revenues at 16% of GDP (18% of GDP has been pretty typical, in the 90s, it was even a bit higher — but some of that was cyclical).
you are probably right that new borrowing from privatization would not impact our AAA rating, at least not immediately. The more important question is whether it would impact long-term interest rates — I think it would. remember, private accounts funded by debt are just an asset swap. someone now holding equity has to agree to exchange that equity for the new debt issued by the government. there is no new savings, and no new asset creation.
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2005-3_archives/000166.html#comments
Tim Geithner Worries…
Greg Ip reports:
WSJ.com – Fed Member Cites Risks to Economy: In a speech yesterday, Timothy Geithner, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, said markets have priced in a very optimistic outlook for the U.S. and world economies. But he said there are many risks to this outlook, which makes it all the more important that the Fed keep inflation low and the federal government rein in its budget deficit….
But Mr. Geithner said the risks to this positive outlook include: rapid growth in government debt in the U.S. and other countries; ‘unprecedented’ external imbalances, in particular the large U.S. trade deficit; and — in an apparent reference to China — some countries’ use of fixed exchange rates that interfere with the resolution of those imbalances. China pegs its currency at what critics say is an artificially low level to the dollar, enabling it to run a large and growing trade surplus with the U.S.
Anne
dear jm
sure, you are right about the gold standard. and the deflationary periods were very tough for lots of people, especially the ones who didnt have net savings (e.g. all those who didnt want to get “crucified on a cross of gold” like william jennings bryan)
your story about deflation being good for savers and bad for debtors is relevant for the present because the US doesnt have net savings. neither does the federal govt. neither do many many consumers. i have yet to hear a deflation scenario in the US that doesnt involve recession if not depression. that’s because it is very hard to imagine. the politicians would be under enormous pressure not to let it happen because a majority of the voters would demand it. (check the figures on household debt – it is scary)
as for the cost of money exceeding the profit you get from its use – that pretty well describes a recession/depression dont you think?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/politics/16benefit.html
Agency Running Social Security to Push Change
By ROBERT PEAR
The Social Security Administration is preparing a major public relations campaign to market the idea that Social Security faces dire financial problems requiring immediate action and private accounts.
Brad- I agree that the non-SS budget is fundamentally out of balance. More taxes, less spending and, hopefully, more economic growth will be required to stabilize the non-SS fiscal picture.
I do not believe the answer is as simple as raising high-bracket taxes. I would rather keep top-brackets taxes where they are now. US high earners are already taxed at a higher rate than in the UK, for example. High earners living in California or NY, pay marginal income taxes rates close to 50% (35% federal income tax, 2.4% medicare tax on all income, and 8-12% state and city income taxes). In addition, high earners tend to own expensive homes. Someone making $500,000 in New York probably lives in a home worth $2 million and pays property taxes of $20,000. That consumes another 4% of gross income.
The UK has nominal property (council) taxes and no equivalent to the state and city income taxes. The highest tax bracket is 40%.
The problem in the US is that our tax base is too narrow.
The best solution, I tyhink, would be to tax all estates at a low rate. Start at 5% for estates worth up to $500,000, then progress the rate until it reaches maybe 20% for estates worth more than $3 million. Since $50 trillion is going to move intergenerationally over the next 50 years, such a tax would raise around $5 trillion.
Such a tax would not distort incentives to produce and save, and it would be fair. This would effectively be a one-time federal property tax based on lifetime income (including capital gains and unreported income) minus expenses.
Andrew and Anne- Pumping up GDP growth assumptions to dissolve a forecasted deficit is the old “Rosy Scenario” trick. I assume the growth assumptions that cure the SS deficit would also cure the structural budget deficit. Party on, Garth.
Andrew- If you had the misfortune to be a US car company shareholder over the past two decades, you would know that shareholders have not been the winners here. I think what you are saying is that if the pension and health insurance liabilities had been properly accounted for in the past, the companies wouldn’t have had any profits. The root of the problem is that UAW retirement benefits have been too generous, and bad accounting allowed that practice to persist until the inevitable cash crisis hit.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bush-Social-Security.html?pagewanted=print&position=
Bush Warns of Social Security Bankruptcy
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush said Saturday that Social Security “is on the road to bankruptcy” and will be unable to pay promised benefits to future generations, raising the stakes in a major political battle with Democrats.
Bush used his weekly radio address to try to build support for his plan to allow workers to divert part of their Social Security payroll taxes into private investment accounts. Democrats accuse him of exaggerating the problem to sell a plan that would scale back Social Security.
Bush said the cost of fixing the system grows larger each year, and he quoted Social Security trustees as saying that waiting just one year would add $600 billion to the price of a solution.
The Social Security agency has created the crisis scenario by making an absurdly low estimate of American long term economic growth. Happily, there are realists about
Let’s sound scarier.
There’s no way to escape a deflation depression.
Social security deficit will explode. So will US federal deficit.
But the one thing that is sure is that profit will fall first. That’s what happen in deflation depression. Profit falls first. Wage stay fixed while prices decline.
Stock markets are ready for a 20 year decline;
Although some think we can’t fall into a deflationary spiral because the Fed has a printing press, and could start buying a wide variety of securities to pump money into the system if needed, I seem to recall that some substantial unrest in the bond markets followed close upon the Fed governor speeches to that effect, as participants began to foresee some side effects the Fed hadn’t thought of.
Since in the basic money equation of
velocity * money supply = real GDP * GDP deflator
velocity is just as important as money supply, it seems theoretically possible to get deflation no matter how great the rate of money growth, if velocity is dropping faster.
I have a premonition that when the current real-estate/stock-market/derivatives/hdege-fund bubble pops, one of the results will be a slowing of economic activity that will drop velocity at a rate greater than the Fed thinks possible, and the Fed won’t catch on until we are so far into the spiral that there’s no way out.
There is a problem with this equation anyway
velocity * money supply = real GDP * GDP deflator
Where in that equation are assets ?
Assets are bought too. I tell you what, lots of the money supply is used to buy assets.
GDP deflator is in no way a measure of the inflation in asset prices.
The real equation is
velocity*money supply = production * level of prices.
But i doubt production is equal to GDP and level of prices to GDP deflator.
That equation was not clear enough yet
velocity*money supply = things around to buy* level of price
that’s the real equation.
It has a real side.
The consuming goods (GDP) * inflation (GDP deflator)
And a financial one.
Investing goods (assets) * asset prices
factcheck.org has a rather poor analysis of the worker to beneficiary ratio:
Social Security Ads: Risk or Protection?
http://www.factcheck.org/article301.html
Very disappointing the lack of context.
“Where in that equation are assets ?”
Though I’m not an economist and don’t fancy myself a lay expert on this topic, I suspect that the reason is that creating X dollars of GDP requires some meaningful expenditure of resources (work hours and materials) and creation of value, but in trading X dollars of assets the money just moves from the buyer’s bank account to the seller’s, while the stock certificate or whatever moves in the opposite direction. Of course some worker time and materials may be expended in executing the transfers, but that it is (presumably) captured in the GDP number.
I have always been amused by the newscast boilerplate that, “Heavy selling (buying) drove stock prices lower (higher) today.” The alternative that, “Stocks traded lower (higher) today,” is much more correct. An asset sale can’t happen without a buyer, and real wealth is neither created nor destroyed.
It occurred to me as I wrote the paragraph above that an initial sale of stock from someone who obtained it by playing a role in creating the company is in fact a sale of something that constitutes real wealth created by an expenditure of work hours and materials, and so presumably should be captured in GDP (I wonder if it is captured by some other route). But GDP as a statistic (rather than as a concept) doesn’t capture the value of things and services produced within the home, either.
Jm,
this is not what I was hinting at. THe thing is : this transaction (asset buying) requires money. A lot of the money around is used to allow asset transactions.
When asset prices go up, this requires more money supply, or an increase in its velocity.
This is the very reason why Friedman got it all wrong. He was arguing money supply was the driving force of inflation. Well over the last 20 years the pace of increase in money supply has risen. THere’s more money around for a similar GDP unit.
Why is that ? How come “velocity” fell ?
The reason is that in the same time asset prices have exploded. ANd this has required an increasing chunck of the money supply.
You can put it in another way. GDP tracks the production of consuming goods. THese do not add up years over years. They are consumed. This is why you can equate annual production to the “things around that can be bought”.
But production goods (a house, a machine tool, a plant) can be added.
DF:
I think you are correct that asset inflation is contributing to the decline of velocity we have been seeing. If someone sells an asset at a higher price than they paid for it, but does not use the proceeds of the sale for consumption or purchase of capital goods, instead cycling them back into another asset purchase, then that will delay the diffusion of a money supply increase into the economy at large.
My point was just that a large enough decrease in velocity, regardless of the cause, can lead to deflation in wages and the prices of goods and services even if the money supply is rising.
As I understand it, there is no direct way to directly measure “velocity”, and it is in effect both defined and measured as
velocity = (real GDP * GDP deflator) / money supply
which would mean that if assets were included in the equation, the variable on the left would have to be given a different name.
The “if” is not a if. If asset prices have gone up, it is of course because people have bought assets with their sale of assets.
But I wonder what you call “producing goods”.
the real equation is as said over here
Money around* velocity = things around you can buy * level of price = GDP* GDP deflator + stock of capital (producing goods) * level of asset prices
The funny thing is not that inflation of asset prices leads to deflation. Actually it has helped a desinflation phenomenon.
The funny things start when asset prices fall.
After all, one could guess, that other things being equal, lots of money would be around useless and this would prop up prices and wages.
But what we’ve seen in Japan 1990 or US 2001 1929 is exactly the opposite.
Asset prices fall, and this is the start for a deflation.
How come ?
Well it’s because other things do not remain equal. Money supply is not controled by the central bank, it is mostly created by private banks, by increase in the level of debt. Once the ratio debt/GDP starts to decrease, then, the overall liquidity falls. In order to avoid complete bankrupcy the central bank increases the supply of M1, but it can not prevent the fall in M3.
“Andrew- If you had the misfortune to be a US car company shareholder over the past two decades, you would know that shareholders have not been the winners here. I think what you are saying is that if the pension and health insurance liabilities had been properly accounted for in the past, the companies wouldn’t have had any profits. The root of the problem is that UAW retirement benefits have been too generous, and bad accounting allowed that practice to persist until the inevitable cash crisis hit.”
Small quibble, but I think we need to limit the discussion to pension benefits, not health – the discussion is about Social Security.
So I’d disagree that the root problem was that retirement benefits were too generous. The root problems were: (1) improper accounting of the costs and (2) incorrect investment strategy. Workers are being paid a pension amount based on past salaries, that is a contractually fixed amount, and certainly independent of the performance of the stock market. It was therefore incorrect of GM and Ford to invest pension monies in the stock market, because this meant workers bore the downside risk but had no benefit on the upside. Each year GM and Ford should have taken estimated cash flows based on life expectency and invested the appropriate amount in risk-free treasuries. Retirement costs would then, in addition, have been readily apparent and could have been appropriately accounted for.
Andrew Boucher:
“It was therefore incorrect of GM and Ford to invest pension monies in the stock market, because this meant workers bore the downside risk but had no benefit on the upside.”
And of course the transient upside profits during the bubble years were used as an excuse to reduce funding, making it certain there would be downside, and amplifying its magnitude. I predict that exactly the same thing will happen if the government were to, say, invest 40% of SS income in a broad stock market, something that is being bandied about around here as a good idea.
Since 1976, the return on the Vanguard S&P Index Fund has been 12.4% a year. How is it possible that pension fund investments in stock for 10 or 20 or 30 years could not have been a roaring success unless the management of the investments was inept? Since GM pension fund money was invested in stock, what could possibly have happened?
In France the first social security scheme was based on capitalisation. I’m talking of years back in 1910 …
Nothing was left out the world wars crash.
Long time series are needed to make rational decisions.
It is natural that stock markets soared during the last 20 years : during all that time wages have lagged behind productivity, profits have soared.
But this can not go on forever, unless one believes ultimately people will agree to work for free, and borrow on their future wages what they have to spend today.
THis is why asset markets have to fall, with profits, as wages catch up with productivity. Most probably through a deflation depression.
anne:
Taking the S&P 500 year-end values and reinvesting the dividend yield for each year, subtracting out 0.18% to simulate the commendably modest management fees of Vanguard, then compounding out to 2004 the returns on an investment made in each year, I get the following returns through 2004 for each year’s investment starting 1976.
On this basis. an amount invested in 1976 would have had an annually compounded return of 12.8% through end 2004, but amounts invested in 1997 through 2001 would not have fared so well. If in the runup to the bubble peak they were using the profits built up in the good years as an excuse to cut back funding, and pulling the apparent surplus out into their bottom line, then those profits aren’t there any more, and amounts invested since then have yielded little return.
1976 12.8%
1977 13.7%
1978 14.0%
1979 13.8%
1980 13.1%
1981 14.0%
1982 13.7%
1983 13.3%
1984 13.7%
1985 12.8%
1986 12.4%
1987 12.9%
1988 12.7%
1989 11.4%
1990 12.7%
1991 11.3%
1992 11.7%
1993 11.9%
1994 13.1%
1995 10.5%
1996 8.9%
1997 5.3%
1998 1.3%
1999 -3.1%
2000 -1.0%
2001 5.1%
2002 41.7%
2003 10.5%
(Based on data from http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/spearn.htm,
which attributes Bloomberg as source.)
I’m going to try to figure out how to post these spreadsheets on a personal web page, as pasting the data in here really doesn’t work very well.
JM if you have older figures it would be really interesting. What were the returns from 1968 to 1976 … I bet the oil shock had some negative impact.
Jesse, I missed your point and I believe this is related to my misunderstanding of Billmon’s point in another thread. Could you please explain to me :
DF
Stocks always move up when the dollar is falling because foreigners are snapping up bargains only on Larry Kudlow’s planet. Actually in Larry’s world stocks always move up.
1 Who is Larry Kudlow ? Is he some kind of US stock market TV commentator ?
2 Why do you say in his world stocks always move up ?
Actually the correlation is working or should be working both ways. From what I’ve seen, when the euro goes up, euro stocks go down, and when the dollar increases, euro stocks go up.
As euro stocks tend to follow US stocks, I believe the correlation is not so good.
I still do not understand why the US stocks should not go up when the dollar falls.
Assuming
1 dollar yealds 1,12 on the stock stock market at the end of the year
1 euro yealds 1,12 on the euro stock market at the end of the year.
If dollar-euro rate moves from 1 dollar for 1 euro to 2 dollars for 1 euro overnight.
Then, as a european investor, I have lots of incentives to buy US stocks.
Of course if I feel it will further depreciate and need to bring back those profits home this is much less interesting. Is that your point ?
But then again, if markets are rational, they expect the dollar to fall when it is high, and to rise when low…
In any way, as long as I’m planning to invest in the USA, account my profits there, I do not worry about further depreciation. The dynamic of concentration of capital in the new york stock exchange works for itself. I mean when the dollar falls, then people, even foreigners, tend to read it from the US point of view (my non US assets will rise in dollar terms, I’ll be rich!).
So can you explain this all to me
DF:
Returns from 1960 thru 1975 to 2004 by same methodology as above follow.
1960 10.7%
1961 10.4%
1962 10.9%
1963 10.6%
1964 10.5%
1965 10.4%
1966 11.1%
1967 10.7%
1968 10.7%
1969 11.4%
1970 11.6%
1971 11.5%
1972 11.3%
1973 12.3%
1974 13.9%
1975 13.2%
Because these are so heavily determined by the current transient value of the S&P 500, effects of the oil shock years aren’t readily apparent.
It was exactly to test the sensitivity of these numbers to current value variations that I built the spreadsheet. For example, if we take the average P/E of the years 76-03 as our basis and change the 2004 closing value to be
0.9 * Earnings/AvgPE
to try to adjust for the fact that the earnings are overstated due to pension underfunding, we get an adjusted closing value of 858.63, and if the index had fallen to that level at 2004 End instead of rising to its arguably overvalued state, all those numbers would have looked rather worse, namely:
1976 11.4%
1977 12.2%
1978 12.4%
1979 12.2%
1980 11.4%
1981 12.2%
1982 11.9%
1983 11.4%
1984 11.7%
1985 10.7%
1986 10.2%
1987 10.5%
1988 10.1%
1989 8.8%
1990 9.8%
1991 8.2%
1992 8.3%
1993 8.2%
1994 9.0%
1995 5.9%
1996 3.7%
1997 -0.5%
1998 -5.4%
1999 -10.9%
2000 -11.5%
2001 -11.3%
2002 1.0%
2003 -21.2%
Because real-world retirement-savers and pension funds are investing every year, it is important to do experiments like this.
These numbers highlight the degree to which the much-vaunted risk premium is thanks to the market’s performance from 1982 through 1995, and that if a person or corporation skimmed off any of those profits rather than leaving them invested, the low or negative returns on the amounts invested since 1995 will have been very damaging to them. That is pretty much what happened with a lot of corporate pension funds, assuming a constant return of, say, 8% on the market, they looked at their positions in the late ’90s and said, gee, we’re overfunded, so we can pull profits out — but to sustain the target return through the bad years you’ve got to leave the profits from the good ones in. Of course, if the government ever starts investing SS funds into the market, the same mistake will be repeated, with the same results. Sigh.
JM
Nicely done.
JM
Sorry, I goofed. The S&P returns you have are not correct year to year. I just looked to your explanation at first, but then I began to go through your numbers. Look to Economagic, MSCI, and Vanguard for sources. I will cite them….
http://www.economagic.com/sp.htm#Monthly
http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/sp/sp04
S&P Index data is available month by month from 1950.
http://www.msci.com/equity/index2.html
Click on USA and register with MSCI. Spread sheet data and charts are available for MSCI USA Large Cap returns including dividends from 1969.
http://flagship4.vanguard.com/VGApp/hnw/FundsByName
Click on S&P 500 and go to performance. Returns are available including dividends and subtracting fund costs from 1976.
http://www.barra.com/Research/SummaryReturns.aspx
http://www.barra.com/Research/DownloadMonthlyReturns.aspx
http://www.barra.com/Research/ReturnCharts.aspx
Look to historical data from 1976.
Anne and JM this is very interesting, could you post the good numbers ?
JM
What you are about is important and appreciated. I just wanted you to know there are differences so they can be fixed in future. Keeping such records is most helpful. Register with the MSCI site, for the large cap data extends to 1969 and can be broken down for value and growth stocks, and includes dividends. The small cap data there begins later.
JM
You are appreciated
Thanks JM. Warren Buffett wrote an article at about the same time arguing that stocks were more than attractively priced. Now, the need is caution. There is much to continue.
Anne
http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2003.html
Look at the opening page of Warren Buffett’s 2003 letter to shareholders. The return with dividends for the S&P is given from 1965 through 2003. I just remembered.
I had not understood you were looking at the returns of an investment made then (in 1970) now (2005).
I thought these were year on year returns.
If you invested in déc 1965 92.43
and sold in dec 1978 96,11
You had invested 23 years with a loss in real terms (inflation was around 8% in these years I believe)…
May be someone can do the math.
ANyway, this goes well with my point, the 70′s were the peak of labor power, a time when oil prices would move instantly into wages and prices… Profits were low as wages were high and rising faster than productivity.
This is what changed. And changed so much that now the risk is deflation. We might get another 20 years of falling stock prices.
So my own bet is this one, wether or not social security reform is passed, few people will be foolish enough to invest in it.
It’s been 5 years till stock markets top. In 5 years it will be ten. Who’ll be still believing that the stock market is great ?