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	<title>Comments on: Surprising fact du jour</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/</link>
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		<title>By: Uncle Billy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108345</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108345</guid>
		<description>Was it just a rumour that we now have safe nuclear technology -- that we can power up our cities with little itsy bitsy things available in great abundance?  And if we do this, won&#039;t we have reduced greatly our dependence on dead dinosaurs and greedily- horded grains?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was it just a rumour that we now have safe nuclear technology &#8212; that we can power up our cities with little itsy bitsy things available in great abundance?  And if we do this, won&#8217;t we have reduced greatly our dependence on dead dinosaurs and greedily- horded grains?</p>
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		<title>By: Lord</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108247</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108247</guid>
		<description>According to the CEO of a major ethanol producer, 1 bushel of corn can produce the equivalent of 2 gallons of gas (including the lower energy content of ethanol), so $7 still looks cheap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the CEO of a major ethanol producer, 1 bushel of corn can produce the equivalent of 2 gallons of gas (including the lower energy content of ethanol), so $7 still looks cheap.</p>
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		<title>By: Realist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108212</link>
		<dc:creator>Realist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108212</guid>
		<description>&quot;On the other hand, there is enough coal out there to last us until we put up the big solar power satellites.&quot;

Don&#039;t bet the farm on it.
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/2726/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the other hand, there is enough coal out there to last us until we put up the big solar power satellites.&#8221;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t bet the farm on it.<br />
<a href="http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/2726/" rel="nofollow">http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/2726/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Twofish</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108210</link>
		<dc:creator>Twofish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108210</guid>
		<description>On the other hand, there is enough coal out there to last us until we put up the big solar power satellites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other hand, there is enough coal out there to last us until we put up the big solar power satellites.</p>
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		<title>By: Twofish</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108209</link>
		<dc:creator>Twofish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108209</guid>
		<description>The other factor here is that technology has vastly reduced the price of conversion from corn to ethanol.

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/16.pdf

Also it matters if the government subsidies went into capital plant.  If government subsidies went into capital plant, then you&#039;ve already have sunk costs, and the important factor is the marginal return.

I suspect that part of the reason that we don&#039;t have spare capacity now is that during the 1990&#039;s the trend was to get rid of the price supports that created excess agricultural capacity.

One other thing is that Harper&#039;s Magazine wrote an article earlier this year saying that alternative energy was the next bubble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other factor here is that technology has vastly reduced the price of conversion from corn to ethanol.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/16.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/16.pdf</a></p>
<p>Also it matters if the government subsidies went into capital plant.  If government subsidies went into capital plant, then you&#8217;ve already have sunk costs, and the important factor is the marginal return.</p>
<p>I suspect that part of the reason that we don&#8217;t have spare capacity now is that during the 1990&#8217;s the trend was to get rid of the price supports that created excess agricultural capacity.</p>
<p>One other thing is that Harper&#8217;s Magazine wrote an article earlier this year saying that alternative energy was the next bubble.</p>
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		<title>By: Realist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108203</link>
		<dc:creator>Realist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108203</guid>
		<description>Brad, your father is spot on in pointing to the Energy Return On Energy Investment (EROEI) issue.  However, EROEI is not the only or ultimate factor weighing against corn ethanol from an energy standpoint (i.e. leaving aside the food and CO2 emissions issue), as you have to consider the USEFULNESS of the different forms of energy.  Thus, the natural gas or coal used to provide heat for the fermentation and distillation steps cannot be used to fuel a car.

So, _IF_ natural gas or coal were in unlimited supply, the production of corn ethanol could still make sense even if the overall process were a net energy loser (again, just from an energy standpoint).

Now, considering the real status of natural gas reserves, does it make sense to burn it for producing corn ethanol when natural gas has such essential uses as home heating &amp; cooking and power generation?

And considering the real status of coal reserves, wouldn&#039;t it be sensible to save it for power generation and for metallurgy?

Note that for Brazilian sugarcane ethanol these considerations do not apply because sugarcane bagasse is used to provide heat for distillation (and there is no fermentation step).

Note also that lack of natural gas or long blackouts have the potential to trigger catastrophic societal collapse in the next decades, in which case people will not worry about what the sea level will be in 100 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, your father is spot on in pointing to the Energy Return On Energy Investment (EROEI) issue.  However, EROEI is not the only or ultimate factor weighing against corn ethanol from an energy standpoint (i.e. leaving aside the food and CO2 emissions issue), as you have to consider the USEFULNESS of the different forms of energy.  Thus, the natural gas or coal used to provide heat for the fermentation and distillation steps cannot be used to fuel a car.</p>
<p>So, _IF_ natural gas or coal were in unlimited supply, the production of corn ethanol could still make sense even if the overall process were a net energy loser (again, just from an energy standpoint).</p>
<p>Now, considering the real status of natural gas reserves, does it make sense to burn it for producing corn ethanol when natural gas has such essential uses as home heating &amp; cooking and power generation?</p>
<p>And considering the real status of coal reserves, wouldn&#8217;t it be sensible to save it for power generation and for metallurgy?</p>
<p>Note that for Brazilian sugarcane ethanol these considerations do not apply because sugarcane bagasse is used to provide heat for distillation (and there is no fermentation step).</p>
<p>Note also that lack of natural gas or long blackouts have the potential to trigger catastrophic societal collapse in the next decades, in which case people will not worry about what the sea level will be in 100 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Twofish</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108193</link>
		<dc:creator>Twofish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108193</guid>
		<description>One has to be very careful when a newspaper article talks about &quot;Chinese officials.&quot;  There are a lot of think-tanks and policy groups in China whose job it is to think of new ideas, but just because someone has a new idea, doesn&#039;t mean that it is getting anywhere. 

Paulson has suggested that China get more voice in the World Bank and IMF in exchange as something of a &quot;carrot&quot; for more flexible exchange rates.  The problem here is that I just don&#039;t see why China would want to have a greater voice in the IMF.  Right now the IMF needs China more than China needs the IMF.

The IMF and World Bank both have had to adjust to new global economic realities, and the World Bank has positioned itself as something of a think-tank and laboratory for anti-poverty programs, and the World Bank is very heavily and usefully involved in projects like setting up a national health care system in China.

I&#039;m not sure what the role of the IMF is.  Now that everyone has huge reserves, there isn&#039;t much need for the IMF to bail anyone out.  Also, the IMF has gotten so much ill-will in the developing world from its &quot;structural adjustment&quot; programs of the 1990&#039;s, that now that the developing world is getting on its feet, no one is particularly interested in working with the IMF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One has to be very careful when a newspaper article talks about &#8220;Chinese officials.&#8221;  There are a lot of think-tanks and policy groups in China whose job it is to think of new ideas, but just because someone has a new idea, doesn&#8217;t mean that it is getting anywhere. </p>
<p>Paulson has suggested that China get more voice in the World Bank and IMF in exchange as something of a &#8220;carrot&#8221; for more flexible exchange rates.  The problem here is that I just don&#8217;t see why China would want to have a greater voice in the IMF.  Right now the IMF needs China more than China needs the IMF.</p>
<p>The IMF and World Bank both have had to adjust to new global economic realities, and the World Bank has positioned itself as something of a think-tank and laboratory for anti-poverty programs, and the World Bank is very heavily and usefully involved in projects like setting up a national health care system in China.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what the role of the IMF is.  Now that everyone has huge reserves, there isn&#8217;t much need for the IMF to bail anyone out.  Also, the IMF has gotten so much ill-will in the developing world from its &#8220;structural adjustment&#8221; programs of the 1990&#8217;s, that now that the developing world is getting on its feet, no one is particularly interested in working with the IMF.</p>
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		<title>By: bsetser</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108182</link>
		<dc:creator>bsetser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108182</guid>
		<description>The story sounded far more like a description of what Mundell believes than a description of anything that might happen -- with the hook being Mundell&#039;s assertion that China was taking his ideas seriously.   Who knows tho -- Fan Gang has published articles indicating that the current global monetary order isn&#039;t working, and he is more of fixer than a floater (i think his critique was that the US wasn&#039;t doing its job in the system, not that the China was pegging) so there may be appetite in the PBoC to think big ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The story sounded far more like a description of what Mundell believes than a description of anything that might happen &#8212; with the hook being Mundell&#8217;s assertion that China was taking his ideas seriously.   Who knows tho &#8212; Fan Gang has published articles indicating that the current global monetary order isn&#8217;t working, and he is more of fixer than a floater (i think his critique was that the US wasn&#8217;t doing its job in the system, not that the China was pegging) so there may be appetite in the PBoC to think big &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MMcC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108180</link>
		<dc:creator>MMcC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108180</guid>
		<description>bsetser: &quot;I personally don’t think that would address China or SAFE’s troubles.&quot;

Me neither. I can&#039;t actually get my head around what Mundell is proposing or why China would favour it. I note he also thinks China would favour an Asian Currency Union and, indeed, a World Currency (which, I suppose, is just another way of thinking about the IMF plan...) I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything to what he&#039;s suggesting - at least, not from the Reuters report, which I made little sense of.  I completely agree that no magic wand from the IMF is going to solve China&#039;s currency issues. I don&#039;t understand what Mundell is suggesting or why it would help. I would, however, suggest that some population of SAFE/PBoC officials are more than willing to suspend common sense when a Nobel winner tells them he&#039;s got an easy out for them in his back pocket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bsetser: &#8220;I personally don’t think that would address China or SAFE’s troubles.&#8221;</p>
<p>Me neither. I can&#8217;t actually get my head around what Mundell is proposing or why China would favour it. I note he also thinks China would favour an Asian Currency Union and, indeed, a World Currency (which, I suppose, is just another way of thinking about the IMF plan&#8230;) I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything to what he&#8217;s suggesting &#8211; at least, not from the Reuters report, which I made little sense of.  I completely agree that no magic wand from the IMF is going to solve China&#8217;s currency issues. I don&#8217;t understand what Mundell is suggesting or why it would help. I would, however, suggest that some population of SAFE/PBoC officials are more than willing to suspend common sense when a Nobel winner tells them he&#8217;s got an easy out for them in his back pocket.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108178</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2008/06/05/surprising-fact-du-jour/#comment-108178</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Brad. Maybe as the story develops, you&#039;ll find a reason to comment on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Brad. Maybe as the story develops, you&#8217;ll find a reason to comment on it.</p>
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