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The G-20 communique

by Brad Setser
November 17, 2008

The G-20’s communiqué offered a surprisingly robust work program for regulatory reform. MIT’s Simon Johnson even worries that it may be too robust – and push banks to scale back their lending in a pro-cyclical way. I am a little less worried about this risk. I assume regulators recognize that a sensible macro-prudential regulatory framework requires raising capital charges in good times (to lean against the boom), not forcing banks to squeeze lending to conserve capital in bad times.

The G-20’s ability to reach agreement on a detailed work program on regulatory reform – just think, the US President has signed off on an effort to evaluate whether compensation practices in the financial sector contributed to excessive risk taking — presumably reflects the groundwork done by the Financial Stability Forum. Many of the G-20’s proposals reflect reforms that key countries have already agreed on there.*

It also reflects another reality: agreement on regulatory changes only required a deal among the G-7 countries, not a deal between the G-7 and the emerging world. The big internationally-active banks are still primarily in the US, Europe and Japan – and are still regulated (and bailed out) by these countries. Emerging economies of course feel the impact of a fall in lending if the financial sector in the US and Europe is hobbled – so they aren’t just bystanders. They should want the US and European regulators to do their jobs effectively, so they aren’t sideswiped by a sudden fall in lending. And no doubt regulation in the emerging world is influenced by practices in the US and Europe. But most emerging market banks already held a bit more capital than US or European banks, as the emerging world didn’t bet on the notion that the fall in macroeconomic and financial volatility associated with the “Great Moderation” was permanent. The Great Moderation never really made it to most of the emerging world: they had a lot more recent experience with macroeconomic volatility.

The “regulatory” deal consequently hinged far more on the US and Europe than the emerging world. And they stepped up. I was struck by how robust the G-20 language describing the short-comings in the advanced economies financial systems was. The G-20 leaders:

During a period of strong global growth, growing capital flows, and prolonged stability earlier this decade, market participants sought higher yields without an adequate appreciation of the risks and failed to exercise proper due diligence. At the same time, weak underwriting standards, unsound risk management practices, increasingly complex and opaque financial products, and consequent excessive leverage combined to create vulnerabilities in the system. Policy-makers, regulators and supervisors, in some advanced countries, did not adequately appreciate and address the risks building up in financial markets, keep pace with financial innovation, or take into account the systemic ramifications of domestic regulatory actions.

But I was also struck my how quiet the G-20 was on the macroeconomic imbalances that facilitated the expansion of leverage in the US and Europe. Remember, the US had a low savings rate – and required inflows from the rest of the world. If those inflows had fallen off as US household debts – and the financial sector’s balance sheet leverage – increased, the US might not have dug itself into a hole. The communiqué language here was remarkably diplomatic. No mention was made of macroeconomic imbalances across countries – or misaligned exchange rates. The communique language remained very vague: “Major underlying factors to the current situation were, among others, inconsistent and insufficiently coordinated macroeconomic policies, inadequate structural reforms, which led to unsustainable global macroeconomic outcomes.” I consequently am surprised (or perhaps I should say less than impressed) that the White House believes that the G-20 reached “a common understanding of the root causes of the global crisis.” Paulson was quite clear on Thursday that the macroeconomic imbalances the G-20 avoided mentioning had something to do with the current mess.

Paulson observed:

“If we only address particular regulatory issues – as critical as they are – without addressing the global imbalances that fueled recent excesses, we will have missed an opportunity to dramatically improve the foundation for global markets and economic vitality going forward. The pressure from global imbalances will simply build up again until it finds another outlet.”

I agree.

The unwillingness of the G-20 to even mention the policies that led to large surpluses in the emerging world was noticeable. Part of the logic of meeting in the G-20 rather than the G-7 is a recognition that financial difficulties in the G-7 matter for the entire global economy. But part of the logic of the G-20 is that the G-7 isn’t the right group for addressing macroeconomic imbalances – or doing macro-economic coordination – as it leaves out the key surplus countries and adjustment ultimately requires policy changes in the surplus as well as the deficit countries (see Martin Wolf). If China (I assume) blocks any reference to misaligned ex change rates and the resulting reserve buildup as a source of the imbalances, it is hard to see how the G-20 can become a forum for helping to coordinate the policy changes needed to bring these imbalances down.

There is another area where the G-7 and the emerging world need to cooperate: the provision of crisis financing to cash-strapped emerging economies. The G-20 leaders statement recognized the need to reform the IMF – and didn’t rule out expanding its size “We should review the adequacy of the resources of the IMF, the World Bank Group and other multilateral development banks and stand ready to increase them where necessary”).

That was a bit more than I was expecting. But it also falls short of what is needed.

Last week the US was indicating that it thought the IMF had all the resources it needs. Mark Landler reports:

“The White House, officials told The Times, does not support proposals for a giant increase in financing for the International Monetary Fund, which is lending money to Iceland, Hungary and Ukraine and recently set up a credit line for countries with liquidity shortages. Noting that the fund had $200 billion on hand to lend, another senior official said, “The I.M.F. seems quite well-funded.””

I would be interested in seeing the underlying calculations that support that conclusion.

Consider the following:

The short-term external debt of the emerging world (per the BIS) is around $1.3 trillion – far more than the $200-250b the IMF can mobilize.

Korea started the crisis with about $250b in reserves. Brazil started the crisis with about $200b in reserves. Both now believe – I suspect – that they needed more reserves than they had to be in a position to protect themselves from the recent financial shock. A $200 billion reserve pool in the IMF is clearly too small to be able to substitute for large national reserves.

In the month of October alone, emerging Asian economies (setting China aside) spent at least $45b defending their currencies.** Russia spent another $45b – and that total likely leaves out a lot of commitment to the state banks. Brazil’s intervention was done through swaps so it didn’t show up as an outright fall in reserves. But — according to
Otaviano Canuto, Brazil’s intervention in the spot market still topped $5b, and it did another $25b in currency swaps. That sums up to a $100 billion plus outflow from the emerging world. A $200 billion IMF couldn’t even cover than kind of global outflow for two months …

Allowing the emerging world to borrow more is in the self-interest of the US and Europe. The shortage of foreign exchange in the emerging world has already led to a strong rally in the dollar – a rally that will cut into US export growth at a time when the US needs exports. That rally is also creating pressure on China to devalue its currency against the dollar – something that would make Chinese products more competitive in the US market and hinder the needed adjustment in Sino-American trade.

If emerging borrowers all have to cut back because of concerns about a lack of financing that would be a further blow to global demand. That should worry Europe – and Germany. If Eastern Europe cannot borrow, Germany (and others) cannot export (Pettis’ argument about China also applies to surplus countries inside Europe).

And longer-term, the last thing the US and Europe should want is a world where the emerging world concludes that it only way it can integrate safely in the international financial system is by maintaining undervalued currencies and building up enormous reserves. Those policies just would perpetuate the imbalances that helped generate the current crisis. The Council on Foreign Relations’ Sebastian Mallaby writes:

“In the absence of a larger IMF, Brazil and its equivalents have two options. They can plan to rely on powerful central banks for emergency loans — during this crisis, the U.S. Federal Reserve has provided $30 billion apiece to Brazil, South Korea, Singapore and Mexico. The problem is that financing from a central bank may come with political conditions. That might sound fine if the central bank is the Fed. But what if it’s the People’s Bank of China, which has more than enough reserves to play the IMF surrogacy game? A weak IMF could hand a powerful foreign policy tool to China.

The other option for countries such as Brazil is to self-insure — to be a driver with an $80,000 bank account. Again, this is already beginning to happen: After the IMF imposed unpopular conditions on crisis countries a decade ago, many emerging economies built up their reserves to avoid repeating that experience. But this every-country-for-itself reserve accumulation is not only wasteful. The savings that pile up in central bank vaults will largely take the form of dollar bonds — that is, lending to Americans. If the past few years are any guide, the resulting whoosh of capital into the United States will inflate the next bubble. “

Much as the US Treasury needs financing now, surely there is a better long-term use of the emerging world’s savings than lending huge sums to the US Treasury.

*The G-20 calls for expanding the membership of the Financial Stability Forum to include a broader set of emerging economies – not just Hong Kong and Singapore.
** My number is adjusted for valuation changes; the unadjusted fall in reserves topped $100 billion.

71 Comments

  • Posted by Barkley Rosser

    Two remarks.

    1) I do not see the regulatory recommendations coming out of the summit as all that vigorous at all. Niall Ferguson has argued in WaPo that Bush blocked either having a clear international reg body or allowing more reg power for the IMF. What came out was this idea backed by the Stability Forum that I hear has already started to be enacted in practice, but is ultimately a strictly ad hoc operation, namely these “colleges of supervisors” (regulators really). So, to keep an eye on a large multinational financial entity, the regulators from the main countries it operates in will get together and confer and attempt to coordinate. Sounds fine and not all that restrictive, but not a big deal.

    2) Probably the reason for the lack of discussion of bop imbalances is precisely the need for a fiscal stimulus, even if reportedly Bush blocked a stronger statement on that. A fiscal stimulus out of the US means not much increase in savings, and who wants that right now around the world? China is contributing with its stimulus package and its modest appreciation of rmb, even if partly offset by tax rebates for exporters.

  • Posted by Will Lewis

    The US has a couple of understandable political rationales for not wanting to enlarge the IMF pool. A quota percentage of greater than 15% gives a Member Country a veto on institutional issues which require 85% weighted majorities for passage. At 17.09%, the US is the only nation with anything close to 15% quota. Enlarging the IMF will require the US to contribute more dollars to maintain a veto which probably does not want to give up.

    In addition to avoid losing power within the IMF, the IMF itself is unpopular on both sides of the aisle in Congress. Until the last couple of weeks it has been largely inactive causing Republicans to bemoan it as a waste of money and unnecessary international entanglement. When it was active it was regarded as a tool of spreading American influence by empowering corrupt dictators, making Democrats angry cause it was a ‘bad’ wasteful international entanglement.

  • Posted by Howard Richman

    Brad,

    Great posting! You are being very farsighted here. I wish the G-20 had been similarly farsighted. Unfortunately, they completely failed to address the global imbalances that are causing this depression.

    If the developing nations conclude from that they need “to be a driver with an $80,000 bank account” then the long-term result of the current crisis will be increased reserve build-ups in the developing world which will worsen the broblem with global trade imbalances.

    That’s why I like Bernanke’s currency swaps so much. He immediately stabilized the South Korean won by trading currencies with them. If Greenspan had traded currencies with the Asian Tigers in 1997, the US manufacturing sector would be much stronger today.

    I do have one very small disagreement with just one sentence that you wrote:

    Remember, the US had a low savings rate – and required inflows from the rest of the world.

    In our book Trading Away Our Future we make the case that the low US savings rate was caused by the inflow of foreign government savings. If the U.S. was experiencing a low savings rate that required the import of foreign savings, then interest rates would have risen. Instead they fell.

    This is simple economics. When quantity rises as a result of an increase in demand, price (in this case interest rates) rise, but when quantity rises as a result of an increase in supply, price falls.

    The lower interest rates caused by the increased supply of foreign government savings caused U.S. savings to fall for a variety of reasons, one of which was that they caused house prices to rise, which permitted increased borrowing on home equity. Another was that they encouraged American corporations to buy back their stock, instead of increasing their reserves. Yet a third was that they encouraged irresponsible budget deficits in Washington.

    Howard Richman
    http://www.tradeandtaxes.blogspot.com

  • Posted by bsetser

    Barkley — I guess I should have been clearer that my evaluation of the regulatory reforms was relative to my expectations. I certainly didn’t expect agreement on anything like an international regulator (and i am not sure it is a good idea: there isn’t a global taxpayer — and regulation ultimately is based on protecting the taxpaper; and ultimately I suspect an international regulator would be weak not strong –i would focus on coordinating national regulation) and I wasn’t expecting the leaders to embrace as detailed a regulatory agenda (even if some things are already underway and the leaders are just taking credit). I was also surprised after W’s speech to see the leaders acknowledge regulatory failings and market excesses as explicitly as they did.

    as for the fiscal stimulus, i would hope it slows rather than stops adjustment — and i would also hope that the US treasury isn’t adopting the increasingly widespread view that the us doesn’t want a fiscal stimulus in china b/c it would risks reducing chinese demand for treasuries … the goal is to generate demand for us products and that could come from abroad too.

  • Posted by locococo

    That should worry Europe – and Germany. If Eastern Europe cannot borrow, Germany (and others) cannot export (Pettis’ argument about China also applies to surplus countries inside Europe).

    dont forget that ECB has a french cret.n, running it arround and does like 2 fund its banks with USDs instead or besides the EU + neighbours (khm CHF and GBP incl) with EURs via swaps.

    …the only central banker “in town” worst than H-BB, much worse that is;

    and that we get from the place that invented fra-res banking in the first place.

    pathetic.

  • Posted by JKH

    Off-topic (or previous topic) on Brad’s Fed watch -

    Treasury has announced it will wind down the supplementary financing account. This will allow the Fed to monetize its entire asset expansion through the banking system via increased reserves (and associated increases in M1) and free up all Treasury financing capacity for TARP and the deficit.

  • Posted by fatbrick

    First, U.S. should ease the export restriction. If there is still trade deficit toward China, then it is reasonable to talk about the global imbalance.

  • Posted by Roland

    Contra Mallaby, it seems that China is reluctant to use its reserves to supplant the IMF. e.g. China refused to aid their longtime ally Pakistan, who then had to appeal to the IMF.

    Anyway, why would Chinese political conditions necessarily be worse for developing countries than IMF conditions have been?

  • Posted by Stuart

    Hailed as a new Bretton Woods in some corners, it was anything but. They did not need a gathering of leaders from the top 20 industrialized nations for this, largely bureaucratic regulatory list of policy desires and stated objectives. I suppose one should not have expected much given the US President is a lame duck. Still, they did not need a G20 for this. US dollar hegemony is at the core of this damn mess and it has to end. They will face this issue soon enough.

  • Posted by Rien Huizer

    Brad,

    This conference was at the wrong time for reaching an agreement on anything political, in terms of allocating costs and benefits of solutions (well, if the pious words about regulation get any real follow-up that will hurt one of the US’s currently most distressed industries, financial services).
    China seems immune to any kind of pressure (what can anyone do to scare these excellent strategists?) and the US has a government without credibility (and it will take the next adminsitration a while to reestablish that).

    Only (parts of) Europe and Japan seem to have a need for solutions and the ability to impose restrictions as well as inflate where deemed necessary. Trouble with Japan and Europe is that consumers there are notoriously risk-averse and more likely to save stimulus than spend it. Combine that with stricter reguation of the financial system and you have a perfect recipe for a “maintenance economy” like Japan has had for some 15 years now, but streching from Okinawa to Galway (I doubt Russia’s economy will be sparkling during the next 5 years, and the elite there is also much more comfortable with order than with dynamism, now he deserving have acquired some wealth, and whatever is in loose hands will simply circulate within the elite, no need to feed further private consumption or “growth”).

    But still, it is good to see some bolting of the stable doors, that should help in about 20 years time, when we reach a new high.

    Of course the form of capital adequacy regulation under Basle II is procyclical. If you do not want banking to be regulated procyclically, you will either have to accept a fair bit of macroeconomic inefficiency (and gvt backing plus allowing for oligopolistic structures) in order to attract private capital that is prepared to own an economic shock absorber. Or you need some kind of an agency (gvt owned of course) that will lend when the procyclically biased prvate sector starts to reduce exposure.

    Interestingly either solution would negate one of the few constructive ideas embedded in Basle II: the most efficient way to run a bank loan portfolio is to diversify effectively across industries, but especially across economies and their cycles. For US banks that may be possible (but not easy you may not reach the scale to compete operationally and thus negate diversification economies) on a purely domestic basis. However for most other countries and also for the EUR zone as a whole, that is not possible, so these banks need access to an international supply of loans. But, of course, they will manage that international component even more procyclically than their domestic component.
    The two ways to make lending less procyclical would also have the effect to make banking more domestic, unless small country governments would extend their anticyclical unbrella over foreigners as well, not a very popular issue politically as we can see in the various cross border debates now emerging across Europe.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    Brad:
    And longer-term, the last thing the US and Europe should want is a world where the emerging world concludes that it only way it can integrate safely in the international financial system is by maintaining undervalued currencies and building up enormous reserves.

    In fact, this is precisely what they want! Even Paulson, who is now making this statement against ‘global imbalances’, was party to the pressure from the current US administration on China to buy dollars and contribute to its strength.

    Chinese exporters benefit from a strong dollar, whereas US consumers get to pay very little for the imported goods in their terms. There are also two extensions of the arrangement: US private banks will be able to raise capital for securitized instruments from private and public Chinese investors. Similarly Chinese private banks will be able to raise capital in dollar denominated foreign currency debt.

    Overall, the arrangement leaves US consumers able to enjoy a much higher standard of living by consuming the cheap imports, whereas the Chinese exporters are left better off than those who’re working for domestic markets.

    Brad, it’s difficult to understand how this ‘global imbalance’ has actually caused the current crisis. The current crisis is the result of one or both of two factors:
    1) Overvaluation of US homes due to excessive private borrowing and lending in the US mortgage market. (this appears to be the dominant hypothesis, though I have doubts about it)
    2) High levels of inflation in energy and food prices, combined with low levels of elasticity in rents and wages, leaving a large number of commoners unable to meet financial commitments they previously made (this is the hypothesis I would favor)
    Neither of the above factors can be directly attributed to the ‘global imbalance’.

    Secondly as far as I can see, China does not favor the policy of continued accumulation of USD in their Forex reserve, except for practical compulsions till an alternative can be worked out. China has emphatically expressed concerns about their long term ability to ‘preserve the value’ of their Forex reserve. They entered bilateral trade agreements with Russia in October to help them meet their crude import needs without resorting to the dollars in their Forex reserve. Today the Chinese president visited Costa Rica to initiate another bilateral trade deal, which was on the back of some hectic dollar diplomacy to break off the traditional ties between Taiwan and Costa Rica.

  • Posted by Twofish

    bsetser: And longer-term, the last thing the US and Europe should want is a world where the emerging world concludes that it only way it can integrate safely in the international financial system is by maintaining undervalued currencies and building up enormous reserves.

    The trouble here is that I don’t see any politically practical alternative other than self-insurance. The danger in any sort of insurance is that in a crisis your insurer would be unwilling or unable to pay. I think that the current crisis will reinforce the desire of the emerging world to self-insure because countries with large currency reserves have done much better than countries without it.

    Also if your currency reserves are large enough then you can influence policies in the developed world in ways that you just can’t if you depend on the IMF.

    bsetser: Those policies just would perpetuate the imbalances that helped generate the current crisis.

    There are two solutions I can see.

    1) Come up with a politically workable framework in which emerging markets can realistically feel that they don’t have to self-insure. I don’t think that this is feasible but I’m interested in any ideas for how this could work.

    or

    2) Accept that global imbalance is going to happen and make the world financial system more robust to the impact of those imbalances.

    I suspect 1) is going to turn out to be impossible and the focus should be on 2).

  • Posted by Twofish

    Also one thing that I find interesting and very different from the 1930′s is that there isn’t any interest on the part of anyone to rethink the terms of the global trade system. Part of my discussion with ReformerRay on the other thread came out of thinking about *why* no one important wants to reexamine the global trade system.

    One other point is that I think recent events have illustrated how the United States may have strongly misread Chinese strategic intentions. A lot of US policy assumed that China was interested in taking over the world and challenging the US for global power, in large part because this is what people in the US would do if the US were in China’s position.

    However, if should be obvious that China *isn’t* interested in taking over the world or even in assuming more “global responsibility.” China’s main concerns are domestic political stability, which means that it’s not going to do things like lend more money to other countries when there is no domestic benefit, even if this results in more global influence.

  • Posted by Twofish

    Chidam: Today the Chinese president visited Costa Rica to initiate another bilateral trade deal, which was on the back of some hectic dollar diplomacy to break off the traditional ties between Taiwan and Costa Rica.

    Also the PRC is no longer interested in having nations switch recognition from Taipei to Beijing. There has been a “diplomatic truce” between Beijing and Taipei that was most recently illustrated by Paraguay.

    The politics of the situation is such that Beijing is probably telling Taiwan’s allies *NOT* to switch recognition as this would undermine Ma Ying-Jeou’s administration. My guess is that right now Beijing is doing everything it can to support Ma so as to permanmently marginalize Taiwan independence by 2012.

    *Very* interesting and complex things would happen if one of Taiwan’s allies or if Taiwan itself came under financial stress. If Paraguay or Nicaragua came under financial stress, you’d see a lot of communications and coordination between Beijing and Taipei over what to do.

    Also something that I’d be thinking and writing a briefing paper on if I were in a think tank, would be contingency strategies in case Taiwan were to have a South Korean style problem. It would be extremely messy.

    Also there are a lot of interesting conversations between China and Cuba. Cuba is interested in China’s economic reforms, and China is very interested in Cuba’s communist grassroots organizations.

  • Posted by DJC

    Latest Commentary from Jim Rogers,
    http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/Columnists/GuestColumnists/article/20081117/008775ec-b491-11dd-9469-00144f2af8e8/The-west-is-finished–Jim-Rogers.jsp

    Now, as the cost of the banking bail-outs mounts, the chickens have come home to roost, and Rogers has not mellowed much in the intervening years. He reserves special ire for US lawmakers and most of all, the Federal Reserve.

    “The central bank in America had made it clear that it will not let any hedge fund fail, and that has helped create this huge amount of loans,” he says. He traces the troubles back to the bail-out of hedge fund Long Term Capital Management in 1998. “LTCM should have failed and had they let it fail, we would not have had so much, if any, of this gigantic creation of toxic waste. Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers would not have been able to write all this junk.”

    “Greenspan refused to let them [LTCM] fail, then he printed huge amounts of money, which led to the dot-com bubble, then after that bubble popped he printed huge amounts more money to goose up housing and consumption.”

    The idea that huge capital injections are now necessary to stop the whole system freezing up is given even shorter shrift. “It’s absolutely false…What the hell is Paulson talking about? Investment banks have been going bust for years…What happens is that he gets calls from his buddies on Wall Street, saying ‘this is serious and we’re gonna fail’ and he panics and dresses it up like the whole world’s going to end. For God’s sake – these kind of things have been happening forever.”

    What’s going on now is “horrible economics and horrible morality,” he concludes.

  • Posted by DJC

    BRIC Developing Nations decline to provide funding to IMF, the stooge of the US Treasury Department.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8036227

    In the first sign of how difficult it could be to update the global financial architecture to include fast-growing developing countries like India, China and Brazil, none of the emerging countries at the Group of 20 summit offered to kick in money for the IMF to fight financial contagion.

    The Brazilians went further. Foreign minister Celso Amorim declared “the G20 has effectively replaced the G8″ and President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva echoed years of blunt advice from the West, telling rich countries to “solve their own economic problems.”

    China, with a pile of foreign reserves approaching $2 trillion — the largest in history — likewise did not respond to lobbying by British Prime Minister Gordon Brown for countries running huge surpluses to contribute.

    “Steady and relatively fast growth in China is in itself an important contribution to international financial stability and world economic growth,” said President Hu Jintao, which announced a $586 billion domestic stimulus plan last week.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    This is slightly off topic, but it’s useful information on the overall effect of the policy response to the credit crisis:

    1) This article from CNBC totals the credit crisis tab to $4.28 trillion, as of Nov 13 2008:
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/27719011

    2) At the same time there’s another article which says that banks are actually unwilling to lend unless they’re able to find creditworthiness borrowers.
    http://news.alibaba.com/article/detail/bank/100022840-1-us-banks-all-cashed-up%252C.html

    CNBC Article:

    Given the speed at which the federal government is throwing money at the financial crisis, the average taxpayer, never mind member of Congress, might not be faulted for losing track.
    CNBC, however, has been paying very close attention and keeping a running tally of actual spending as well as the commitments involved.
    Try $4.28 trillion dollars. That’s $4,284,500,000,000 and more than what was spent on WW II, if adjusted for inflation, based on our computations from a variety of estimates and sources*.Not only is it a astronomical amount of money, its’ a complicated cocktail of budgeted dollars, actual spending, guarantees, loans, swaps and other market mechanisms by the Federal Reserve, the Treasury and other offices of government taken over roughly the last year, based on government data and new releases. Strictly speaking, not every cent is directed a result of what’s called the financial crisis, but it arguably related to it.
    Some 68-percent of the sum falls under the Federal Reserve’s umbrella, while another 16 percent is the under the Treasury Asset Relief Program, TARP, as defined under the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, signed into law in early October. (The TARP alone is bigger than virtually any other US government endeavor dating back to the Louisiana Purchase. See slideshow.)

  • Posted by Rien Huizer

    DJC,

    Mr Hu was right, technically. Point is, if his growth goes at someone else’s expense, then there is a problem.

    Anyway, would anyone seriously expect something like the G20 to produce anything but a social event (no harm, talking is better than raising trade barriers etc). And those rich LDCs force the G7 towards the polpulist (and politically preferable) solution of inflating ourselves out of this crisis that never should have occurred. That will entail some loss of competitive advantage vis a vis the LDCs who whould like to eat our lunch (most of them are zero sum adherents) and contribute to the transition to a new world order, or chaos. Just imagine India, China and Brazil calling the shots, instead of the US, US 0f A and America. No kiding, I prefer single handed policymaking even if it is a little clumsy.

  • Posted by bsetser

    Chidam — Costa Rica already reoriented its China policy away from Taiwan, and got SAFE to purchases some of its $ bonds in return. And as I laid out in my post “the end of Bretton Woods 2″ there is a fairly clear connection between global reserve growth and household borrowing in the US. You would agree i hope that a large surplus in one part of the world has to be offset by a large deficit in another part of the world — and in this case, the offsetting deficit was found in the US household sector. I don’t have space to walk you through the financial market connections that made this possible, but they exist — the key one is that dollar reserve growth held down US interest rates and thus induced borrowing while undervalued exchange rates discouraged investment in tradable goods. the result was lots of borrowing to buy homes …

    2fish — I fear you are right, but I am also not sure it is possible to build a crash proof financial system with large surpluses in one region and large deficits in another. the best crash proofing is usually smaller deficits/ borrowing needs.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Testing to see if I can add.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    the number of CDS trades outstanding on Lehman includes a significant number of transactions that offset each other, settlement payments are only a fraction – about 1% to 2% – of the approximately $400 billion notional of CDS trades referencing Lehman, he said.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Thanks DJC for providing the quotes from Rogers. He expresses my sentiments exactly. The notion that financial firms are too intertwined to fail is the reason they became even more intertwined. The failure of Lehman Brothers needs to be reevaluated. It is true that this event scared the bejebees out of financial firms and they became suddenly afraid to lend to other financial firms. Very good. They should have been afraid. The FRB moved in and provided liquidity where the private market would not. And the world moved on.

    The following is from the website of the Depository Trust and Clearing Corporation
    “Lehman credit event processed with net $5.2 billion, says DTCC
    News Digest, 23 October 2008
    The DTCC announced yesterday the successful settlement of OTC credit default swap contracts related to the Lehman credit event. $5.2 billion in net funds transfer from net sellers of protection to net buyers of protection took place. Normal settlement procedures of CLS Bank were used for 21 October without incident. Approximately $72 billion in Lehman CDS were registered with the warehouse at the time of their bankruptcy”. A Mr. Pickel on the website said the following: “the number of CDS trades outstanding on Lehman includes a significant number of transactions that offset each other, settlement payments are only a fraction – about 1% to 2% – of the approximately $400 billion notional of CDS trades referencing Lehman”.
    The proper treatment of AIG is to allow it to fail so that the refusal to bailout GM is consistent with the treatment of financial firms.
    The lack of credit in the system is a consequence of fear that loans will not be repaid. That fear is rational. Lack of credit is not the reason for a decline in investment. Under current conditions, investment is dangerous.

    The proper lesson from 1932 is not to prevent an economic decline, but to stage the government investment properly – when the decline has hit bottom. Bernanke did not take the proper lesson from his study of the Great Depression.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Twofish says:

    Also one thing that I find interesting and very different from the 1930’s is that there isn’t any interest on the part of anyone to rethink the terms of the global trade system.

    Very true and very sad. Everbody else is happy to plunder the U.S. of its financial assets and the U.S. is like a scared rabbit, too frigtened to move.

  • Posted by Twofish

    DJC: The central bank in America had made it clear that it will not let any hedge fund fail.

    This isn’t true. Hedge funds fail all of the time. They are failing by the dozens as we speak. One of the consequences of LTCM was that the rules have been quietly changed so that hedge funds can “fail gracefully”. Hedge funds are not directly regulated, but they are a good example of “indirect regulation” that seems to have worked in this situation.

    Also I can think of only one investment bank failure since the 1950′s (Drexel Burnham Lambert).

    It’s also bizarre that Rogers is claiming that government bailouts mean the end of the West since the Chinese government bailouts out banks and companies all of the time.

  • Posted by Twofish

    bsetser: I fear you are right, but I am also not sure it is possible to build a crash proof financial system with large surpluses in one region and large deficits in another.

    You do what you can, and I think the problem isn’t borrowing. It’s leverage. The housing bubble was going to pop. Lots of people were going to lose money. However, it didn’t have to nearly result in the destruction of the world financial system.

  • Posted by anon

    “undervalued exchange rates discouraged investment in tradable goods. the result was lots of borrowing to buy homes”

    Could you elaborate a bit?

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: It is true that this event scared the bejebees out of financial firms and they became suddenly afraid to lend to other financial firms. Very good.

    Anything that nearly results in the destruction of the world financial system is not very good. The system survived but almost just barely.

    Also, we need to be clear about what it means to fail. Fannie, Freddie, WaMu, Wachovia, and AIG all failed in the sense that the senior management were fired and replaced with new people, and if you replace the CEO, you don’t have moral hazard problems.

    The problem with what has been suggested with GM is that it doesn’t involve firing the CEO. Firing the CEO is essential before the company gets one cent from the government. Once you fire the CEO and the Board of Directors, then we talk new funding.

    ReformerRay: Lack of credit is not the reason for a decline in investment. Under current conditions, investment is dangerous.

    So you suggest that we should all withdraw our money from the banks and put them in mattresss and gold bars? All of the money people have in banks are loans to banks, and the reason that the system nearly collapsed was that you had hedge funds threatening to withdraw hundreds of millions of dollars from prime brokers.

    Investment *is* credit.

    ReformerRay: Very true and very sad. Everbody else is happy to plunder the U.S. of its financial assets and the U.S. is like a scared rabbit, too frigtened to move.

    If more people in the US are benefiting from the trade system than are being hurt by it, then how is it “plunder” or against US interests. Also the US *doesn’t* have the problem of people “plundering” the US. Pretty much everyone is willing to give the US massive amounts of credit and loans at very, very loan interest rates. The US is getting cheap goods and free money from rest of the world.

    The problem is that over the last ten years, the prevailing ideology has caused the US to spend the wealth that the result of the world has given it on stupid things, and that is the basic problem.

  • Posted by DJC

    Twofish,

    Oh please, Paulson is practicing financial socialism for the biggest Hedge Fund on Wall Street: Goldman Sachs. The US Treasury has already directly sent a $10 billion taxpayer check to Goldman Sachs. In addition, the Federal Reserve is guaranteeing upwards of $150 billion of AIG counterparty losses for Goldman Sachs.

    US Taxpayer Bailout of Wall Street banks already totals $4.28 trillion. Privatizing the profits to politically connected Wall Street cronies and socializing the losses to the US taxpayers.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/27719011

    Try $4.28 trillion dollars. That’s $4,284,500,000,000 and more than what was spent on WW II, if adjusted for inflation, based on our computations from a variety of estimates and sources*.

    Not only is it a astronomical amount of money, its’ a complicated cocktail of budgeted dollars, actual spending, guarantees, loans, swaps and other market mechanisms by the Federal Reserve, the Treasury and other offices of government taken over roughly the last year, based on government data and news releases.

  • Posted by Twofish

    DJC: Oh please, Paulson is practicing financial socialism for the biggest Hedge Fund on Wall Street: Goldman Sachs.

    I don’t think socialism or (for that matter Marxism) is a bad thing. “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” works quite well for China. If “socialism with American characteristics” works for America, then so be it.

    I really don’t care what the color of the cat is or what you call it. If I was running for office, I’d be careful what I call things, but since I’m not, I can say “I don’t care if it is socialism, maybe financial socialism is a good thing.”

    DJC: US Taxpayer Bailout of Wall Street banks already totals $4.28 trillion.

    And since it prevents the collapse of the economic system, it’s a bargain. Most of that money were loans that will be paid back and there is quite a bit of double counting on that list.

    So if you add up the total bill, it’s likely to be smaller, to get some of the money back we can soak the rich.

    How’s that for socialist?

  • Posted by DJC

    Twofish,

    Agricultural Bank of China received a $19 billion bailout from the Chinese government in a major step toward restructuring the rural lender. Agricultural Bank of China is a 100% Chinese state-owned corporation. A Chinese government bailout of a public-owned corporation is state-socialism.

    By contrast, the $150 billion taxpayer bailout of AIG by the Federal Reserve and US Treasury is designed to protect the personal shareholder profits of Goldman Sachs including Hank Paulson’s personal wealth for $600 million. The $150 billion taxpayer bailout of AIG represents a state-sanctioned financial kleptocracy. If you truly believe the US taxpayers will receive one dollar back from the AIG and Goldman Sachs, then I have the Brooklyn Bridge to sell to you. The bankruptcy of Goldman Sachs wouldn’t have been the end of Western civilization, but perhaps the rebirth of it.

  • Posted by DJC

    Japanese Banks demand Yen denominated bonds from US Treasury
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JK19Dh01.html

    TOKYO – Japanese economists, increasingly concerned that the United States might seek to pay its enormous and growing debt obligations in a weakened US dollar, are looking to the possibility of US Treasuries being issued in yen.

    The US government needs to borrow at least US$1 trillion in the coming year, excluding the US Treasury’s $700 billion plan to bail out the financial and other industries, said Kazuo Mizuno, chief economist in Tokyo at Mitsubishi UFJ Securities Co, a unit of Japan’s largest publicly traded lender by assets. That amount is likely to grow as the US government continues to rescue failed parts of the economy and has to raise more debt – that is, issue government bonds, or Treasuries – to fund such rescues.

    Since 2004, when the amount of the government bond issuance reached an annual average of $400 billion, 94% of new buyers of US government bonds have been foreigners, Mizuno told Asia Times Online.

    One measure of the increased concern at the ability of the United States to finance its enormous deficits in the future is the rising cost of credit default swaps bought as protection of Treasury debt.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    Brad:
    dollar reserve growth held down US interest rates and thus induced borrowing while undervalued exchange rates discouraged investment in tradable goods. the result was lots of borrowing to buy homes …

    Brad, you have held a very strong and firm position regarding the US deficit and the strength of the US dollar for several years, at least since 2004.

    Your position begins with the undisputable technological superiority of the United States. Apart from repeatedly proven and established military superiority; the United States also leads the rest of the world by far in most commercial areas of technology. If you look at technologies with relevant commercial applications for strategic business advantage: such as satellite communications, parallel computing, nuclear technology, aerodynamics, new pharmaceutical molecules, agricultural biotechnology, nanotechnology; and even all common computer software products, multimedia technologies, etc; the United States has an undisputable lead in all these areas.

    (Warren Buffet proudly refuses to understand any of these areas and he cleverly avoids investing even in one of them)

    So you’re having difficulty in understanding why the US as a country can’t utilize this advantage to create a huge trade surplus with most other countries, rather than have a trade deficit with all of its top 30 trading partners for the last 30 years or more.

    First of all, you have to be aware that the technological superiority of the United States or their inherent ability to conduct commerce successfully is not in question, nor has it been in question for quite a long time now.

    So why does the Washington policy establishment go hankering after weak RMB and chase cheap imports from just about everywhere in the world? (Even the current Treasury administration made their famous visit to China to persuade China to buy dollars, while they now soapbox about global imbalances)

    This is actually a fine kettle of fish, according to you. If Obelix had been alive, he would have tapped his forehead and said … These Americans are crazy!

    Hmmm ok now I’m going to post this part till here I wish you will take few minutes of your time to put yourself in the shoes of the Washington and Beijing policy makers and try to understand their perspective on this issue. (I mean this in a metaphysical rather than literal sense … their shoes will probably a whole year’s CFR salary …)

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    The U.S. financial system was never near collapse. It was near a complete restructuring. A restructuring that would have shifted the provision of loans to customers in the U.S. from major wall street banks to smaller regional and local banks that did not participate in the frenzy of profit making with derivatives.

    One famous writer who wrote books prophesying the end of Western Civilization was answered with the comment that he confused his own end (he was old) with the end of civilization. Bernanke and Paulson have confused the end of the dominance of wall street banks with the end of the U.S. financial system.

    I hope some politicians will wake up and smell the coffee.

  • Posted by bsetser

    chidam — the US technology advantage isn’t as great as you indicate, and if read my past work, you would know that i believe that the dollar’s strength v key emerging market currencies from 2002 to 2006 played a major role the emergence of a large deficit. I have consistently argued that the us should encourage china to let its currency appreciate and do more to support domestic demand even if this means less financing for the US — I rarely recognize my actual views in the arguments you attribute to me.

  • Posted by bsetser

    anon — china’s weak rmb encouraged investment in china’s tradables, with lots of that investment going to build goods for sale in the us and europe. if the rmb had been higher, you would have seen more investment in tradables production in the us. think furniture and auto parts if you want concrete sectors — we were seeing some furniture production migrate back to the us back when higher energy prices and a rising rmb (and rising wages) increased the cost of producing furniture in china and shipping it to the us.

    this is econ 101 — relative prices matter, and china’s weak currency encouraged investment there to produce goods for the world, and by implication, there was less investment in those sectors elsewhere in the world.

    conversely housing doesn’t compete with china — low interest rates and a bubble psychology encouraged lots of investment there.

  • Posted by DJC

    As expected, the G-20 Economic Summit in Washington turned out to be a total bust. None of the problems which have pushed the global economy to the brink of disaster were resolved and none of the main players who gamed the system with their toxic securities were held accountable. Instead, the visiting dignitaries gorged themselves on stuffed quail and roast rack of lamb before settling on a toothless “Statement on Financial Markets” which accomplished absolutely nothing. The one noteworthy clause in the entire document is a two paragraph indictment of the United States as the perpetrator of the financial crisis. At least they got that right.

    The contagion started on Wall Street and that’s where the responsibility lies. It was the result of the Fed’s reckless low interest rates and lack of government oversight. This allowed market participants to create massive amounts of leverage via speculative bets on under-capitalized debt-instruments. The resulting collapse in value of all asset-classes across the spectrum has created a gigantic multi-trillion dollar capital hole in the global financial system which has precipitated violent swings in the stock markets, tightening credit, currency dislocations, soaring unemployment and deflation. Almost all of todays economic woes can be traced back to legislation that was promoted by key members of the Clinton and Bush administrations. (Many of who will now serve in the Obama White House) The G 20s statement puts the blame squarely where it belongs; on the Federal Reserve and Wall Street.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11022

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Chimbram says:

    “why does the Washington policy establishment go hankering after weak RMB and chase cheap imports from just about everywhere in the world”.

    It is U.S. consumers (including manufacturing firms still operating in the U.S.) who “chase cheap imports”. The policy establishment merely goes along with the flow. All have agreed to not look beyond the next reporting quarter for private sector profits.

    As to Brad’s reported lack of understanding, he understands that we are in trouble. He just cannot throw off the doctrine that imports should not be restricted by the government.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Bester says:

    “I have consistently argued that the us should encourage china to let its currency appreciate and do more to support domestic demand even if this means less financing for the US”. True. This is an accurate statement.

    Sorry to withdraw my support from the person who makes this forum possible, but Brad, I cannot understand why you think China’s policy is your right to control or influence. You are not a citizen of China. China will do what it thinks is in the interests of China. Recognize that. Tell us what the U.S. should do in the face of China’s insistence on supporting exports to the U.S. as THE major policy objective.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    Brad,
    I’m not disagreeing that the Chinese willingness to keep the RMB weak, encourage exports, accumulate billions of USD to sleep in the People’s Forex Reserve , and buy Agency bonds did create a huge amount of surplus credit availability for the construction of hundreds of thousands of new homes each month in the US.
    And sorry about exaggerating a little on the US technological advantage part …
    What I’m asking you to consider is two things:
    1) China’s exchange rate policy, and their forex reserve management has always been heavily influenced by the Washington policy establishment, and Washington continues to support weak RMB and strong USD even now. Why would they do that?
    2) The easy availability of credit should push home prices up rather than down. What we’re seeing since April 2007 is lower home prices, which is the beginning of the current crisis, so this can’t be directly attributed to the easy availability of credit.
    Would you agree that a crisis which began with lower home prices can’t be easily attributed to high availability of credit from China?
    And in one of your posts you seemed to suggest that China continuing to buy Agencies would help stabilize the financial system … please correct me if my understanding of your position is wrong.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Twofish says:

    ReformerRay: “It is true that this event scared the bejebees out of financial firms and they became suddenly afraid to lend to other financial firms. Very good”

    Anything that nearly results in the destruction of the world financial system is not very good. The system survived but almost just barely.

    Now Twofish. There will be a world financial system simply because international trade will continue and a world financial system is required for world trade to continue. It would have been a different system from the old one. If bad investments had been allowed to be recognized, as we say, “mistakes were made”, the new system would be much better than the old because leverage would no longer be permitted.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    Brad,
    I’ve been following your work since around March 2007 or so, and I’ve managed to go through some of your excellent work from before then.
    I consider your views around China’s exchange rate policy, and the US deficit to be crucial and central to your overall contribution to discussions on international finance.
    However my concern here is for you rather than for your view on this issue.
    What I’m pointing out to you is that a majority of policy makers, even today, are in favor of a strong dollar, viz. a viz. just about any currency. This is true not only for the Washington policy makers but also leaders around the world.
    At the G-20 summit over the last weekend, the Japanese leadership supported the USD continuing as the world’s reserve currency.
    So I think it’s important for you to think about what their perspective is; why would they favor strong USD vs. RMB?
    Unless you understand their perspective, you will be at a huge variance with a large number of constituents of the policy establishment. There’s nothing wrong in holding views which are different from what everybody else is thinking, but at the same time, you will benefit if you devote a lot of thought to understanding where they are coming from.
    At the same time, I believe I know the precise reason why so many policy makers all around the world favor a strong USD, though I may be wrong.

  • Posted by bsetser

    Reformer Ray — Please read my statement. I said i have argued that the US should encourage, not that China should … I realize that as an American citizen I don’t have a say in China’s exchange rate policy. The question of how the US should respond if China insists on maintaining its exchange rate peg is a very vexing issue.

    I would at a minimum recommend that the US not sign any communique that doesn’t even mention exchange rate misalignments as a conbributing force to the recent crisis (not mentioning exchange rates is like not mentioning excessive leverage — it ignores the elephant in the room) … and I would also be quite clear that the US is willing to let China play a much bigger role in institutions like the IMF, but if it is going to play a role — and the IMf is going to be looking far more closely at financial vulnerabilities in the US — China also has to be willing to let the IMF publish its assessment of China’s exchange rate regime.

    at this point though I am reluctant to go further — just because the world is so unsettled.

  • Posted by IM

    Brad,

    I would argue that, some of the imbalances derive from differences in fiscal policies. For example, tax breaks designed to help housing buyers, may have prompted, via “wealth effect”, to reduce savings in certain countries such as the US (or Spain).

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Brad – I take your point. There is a difference between “the U.S. should encourage” and “China should”. But the difference becomes unimportant when we ask why the U.S. should encourage. You believe the U.S. should encourage because such action by China would reduce global imbalances. So I arrive again at the position that you are hoping and praying that U.S. jawboning will influence Chinese actions in a direction that would benefit the global economy. I simplify that to “China should”.

    But I also recognize that your phrasing is directed at desirable U.S. action, which is good.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Brad – Thanks for responding to my previous post.

    Another issue worth discussion is the connection between the value of the u.s. dollar and the size of the trade deficit.

    The data for the years 1982 through 1989 show the strong that the trade deficit goes up and down in lag response to the value of the dollar. The fact that the value of the dollar leads the trade deficit with a lag argues strongly for causation, not just correlation.

    However, the data from 1997 – 2007 provide a different picture. Something else outside the relationship between the two variables is stronger than the impact of dollar value on the trade deficit.

    In addition, if we compare the years 1980 to 2007, we see that the real, trade weighted value of the dollar is about the same for both periods. My conclusion is that the value of the dollar can control the size of the trade deficit under certain conditions, but ultimately, over a long time period, the trade deficit is controlled by something else – the market for goods produced in the u.S.. and overseas. That market is not a free market but is rigged by governmental intervention everywhere but in the U.S. and Great Britain, the two countries with the largest numeric trade deficit in goods.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    I see this situation much more clearly as one where the US is actually forcing China to maintain a strong dollar, and creating various diplomatic and economic threats, etc to make sure that the Chinese don’t suddenly exit through the back door from the Prisoner’s Dilemma game between the US and the Pacific Rim countries.

  • Posted by Chidambaram

    Brad:
    The question of how the US should respond if China insists on maintaining its exchange rate peg is a very vexing issue.
    The chances that China is able to maintain this exchange rate policy without active support and encouragement from Washington are so slim that they can be ignored.

    I see this situation much more clearly as one where the US is actually forcing China to maintain a strong dollar, and creating various diplomatic and economic threats, etc to make sure that the Chinese don’t suddenly exit from the Prisoner’s Dilemma game between the US and the Pacific Rim countries.

    PBoC is not the only central bank which can engage in open market operations. If the Fed wants to, every time PBoC intervenes to buy USD and sell RMB, the Fed can sell USD and buy RMB in its own OMOs.

    Secondly, though diplomatic ties between Beijing and Taipei have reportedly thawed, diplomatic ties between India and the United States have never been as strong as they are now.
    The US has already started exploiting its ties with India to rattle sabers against China on the diplomatic front.
    A short while back, the Indian Foreign Minister suddenly made a visit to Arunachal Pradesh. While he was there he made a speech saying that Arunachal Pradesh is a domestic Indian state, that it elects two representatives to India’s Parliament and that overall the State of Arunachal Pradesh has a ‘special place in India’s heart’.
    This sudden speech was like an invitation card for China to rattle its sabers back (these are actually not just sabers but rather fearsome magic arrows which can instantly vaporize large crowded Indian cities, right while the folks are dealing with the perennial traffic jams).
    A spokesperson from China’s foreign ministry responded angrily the following day, just as the corrupt Indian foreign policy makers would have wanted them to!
    As far as economics is concerned, India may be refusing to emerge right now, earlier for several decades it was an economy that was stubbornly refusing to develop; and before that for around 13 centuries it was simply a colony for somebody or other.
    But the Indian political leaders hold the unawarded Olympic gold medal in crookedness, since before Olympic gold medals were even invented!
    China said that the government has no regard for historical facts and that Tawang is the birthplace of the Dalai Lama, etc.
    This immediately gave a wonderful opportunity for the Indian side to soapbox right back at the Comrades!
    The Indian side said that the McMohan line has been the actual line of control and that China should accept it at last, or else respond to India’s claim that some xyz 000 sq. kilometers of Indian Kashmir was being held illegally by China.
    Sooner or later these kinds of arguments can be further aggravated to start a great Sino-Indian war all over again!
    Brad, at the risk of making you think about it again, do you really think that Washington favors weaker USD against RMB? If this understanding is based only on Mr. Paulson’s statement above, I would suggest that you should use your contacts to determine if this is the really the dominant policy stance in Washington.
    I think everybody would agree that a stronger dollar against RMB is even more critical to Washington’s response to the crisis than ever before.
    A sudden collapse in the USD exchange rate at this stage means two simple things:
    1) All consumable goods in the US would become much more expensive overnight.
    2) There would be tremendous increases in unemployment in almost all the Pacific Rim countries, and their economies would collapse overnight, obviating any possibility of increased US exports to them.

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: The U.S. financial system was never near collapse.

    Nope. It was very close to collapse. Fortunately, it didn’t.

    ReformerRay: A restructuring that would have shifted the provision of loans to customers in the U.S. from major wall street banks to smaller regional and local banks that did not participate in the frenzy of profit making with derivatives.

    1) Most short term industrial borrowing doesn’t go through commercial banks. It goes through the securities markets through commercial paper borrowing, and that goes through the investment banks. If things had gotten bad you would have seen massive plant closures as major corporations would not have money to pay workers.

    2) Small community banks and credit unions would have been likely to go first since they don’t have large capital reserves, and they are indirectly exposed to liquidity risk. Without investment banks, they wouldn’t have the ability to rapidly convert their holdings of loans and securities into cash in order to meet the line of angry depositors outside the doors.

    It’s very popular to think of bankers as fat cat parasites that the world would be better off without. However the problem with that view is that its not true.

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: Bernanke and Paulson have confused the end of the dominance of wall street banks with the end of the U.S. financial system.

    Like it or not, Wall Street is at the heart of the American financial system in quite a literal fashion. It’s more efficient for people that need money and people to have money to meet in a central location and that location happens to be New York City.

    One thing that you can do is “following the money”, and you need to do this yourself.

    Start with a dollar bill that you put into your bank account. Where does that dollar go? You can also work the other way. That dollar in your pocket, where did it come from? If you trace all of the steps, you very quickly end up in an investment bank. If you kill the investment banks then everything will stop cold. It’s quite literally like ripping someone’s heart out.

    Maybe it would be better if the system wasn’t concentrated in one point of failure, but it will take years, maybe decades to change.

    ReformerRay: It is U.S. consumers (including manufacturing firms still operating in the U.S.) who “chase cheap imports”. The policy establishment merely goes along with the flow. All have agreed to not look beyond the next reporting quarter for private sector profits.

    It’s not only US consumers and it’s US producers and most people in the US. Also everyone involved is interested in looking beyond the next quarter. You have an 35 year old investment banker making $150K. Now let’s look long term say twenty years, how will import restrictions benefit him, either short or long term? Sure he might be game to give up the $150 K for a year of pain if he gets….. What exactly?

    Also if you talk to people in policy making positions in the big banks, they are looking quite long term. It’s pretty obvious that China and India will be the major global powers of the mid 21st century, and people want to get in good with them.

  • Posted by Twofish

    bsetser: I said i have argued that the US should encourage, not that China should …

    The problem is that at some point China looks at the consequences and then says “no.” At which point it’s not clear what the US should do.

    bsetser: I realize that as an American citizen I don’t have a say in China’s exchange rate policy.

    This isn’t true. When the Politburo studied this issue, they relied very heavily on the opinions of Western economists, who incidentally have quite varied opinions on the topic.

    Pointing that someone is an outsider so that they should shut up is sometimes quite destructive, because outsiders often have different views on things, and they can say and think things that insiders can’t. This is why you have non-Chinese on the boards of the major Chinese banks.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    I think Twofish perspective is quite important because it reveals some of the hidden reasons no one will listen to my proposal for reducing the trade deficit.

    So many politicians and business mean see themselves as realistic because they recognize that China and India are the future powers in the world.

    However, the notion that one can “get in good” with the future rulers of the world economy is wishful thinking. Take the example of Rupert Murdock. He has tried with all his might to “get in good” with Chinese authorties, to no avail. The people inside the system know their future power and they are not going to share it with anyone who did not grow up inside the Commnunistic party of China. This is realistic, given the history of China and India.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    The only thing China (or Japan for that matter) will respect is hard work to defend the interests of your own country in a world in which other nations are defending their own interests.

    I join them in that perspective.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Typing error – business MEN, not business mean. Fredian slip?

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Twofish wants to know how reducing the trade deficit will benefit the fiancial worker who is now making $150 K per year..

    Pay is dependent upon the productivity of the total U.S. economy. The global economy is leaving behind any ecoomy that cannot sell goods in that global economy. If the trade deficit remains at its current level, 10 years from now, the U.S. will be a relatively poor country. Fewer people in the U.S. will be making good money.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    “Like it or not, Wall Street is at the heart of the American financial system in quite a literal fashion”.

    That sentence was true in the period 1997 – 2006. Since then it has been all downhill.

    Wall Street is valuable only if it provides a valuable service. Securitization of loans no longer provides a valuable service. Leverage of 30 to 1 no longer provides a valuable service.

    In the realistic world that the fiancial system created, to no longer produce profits is to be irrevelant.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    The stock market no longer provides a valuable service.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Honda built the its motorcycle plant in Ohio to test the waters to see if U.S. workers would be productive under their system. They were doing that as insurance, in case the Americans became realistic and reduced imports of automobiles into the U.S. They could visualize the U.S. doing that because their country would surely have protected itself, if the positions had been reversed.

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: The people inside the system know their future power and they are not going to share it with anyone who did not grow up inside the Commnunistic party of China.

    This isn’t true. Your typical Communist Party official does not know how to run a pencil factory and if you run a pencil factory that generates jobs, this gives you power and influence.

    ReformerRay: Pay is dependent upon the productivity of the total U.S. economy. The global economy is leaving behind any ecoomy that cannot sell goods in that global economy.

    And productivity in the US economy is extremely high because a lot of the functions are moved offshore. Spending $50/hour to get someone to do something that can be done with $3/hour does not increase productivity. The thing that really creates lots of wealth are things in which you can make things more efficient by moving paper or electrons.

    If you look at the fast growing innovative companies in the United States, google, ebay, microsoft, dell. They all got where they are because the US has financial infrastructure to start these sorts of companies in the form of VC and private equity. Having a good idea is completely useless unless you have the financial resources to do something with it.

    ReformerRay: Wall Street is valuable only if it provides a valuable service. Securitization of loans no longer provides a valuable service.

    Yes it does. Like all powerful tools it can be misused, and one of the problems is that people only hear about these sorts of financial instruments when something goes wrong.

    You have a car factory that needs to produce cars but can’t buy steel, because it hasn’t sold the cars to get the cash to buy the steel. A lot of finance involves these sorts of chicken and egg problems. So you sell asset backed commercial paper saying that you will promise to pay the holder the money you make from selling cars. You use the cash to buy the steel to make the cars. This paper gets securitized and then sold on the money market.

    If you don’t do things like this, you end up with lots of dead capital. What happens in the United States is that the cost of this short term working capital is extremely cheap 3% annual interest. In China, it’s very expensive for local non-state firms to access this credit, which is actually why lots of foreign companies invest in China at the same time that China is buying massive amounts of treasury bonds.

    In the US people use giant power saws to do financial things that people in other parts of the world do with hand tools. When it works, it works well. When it starts breaking, things get ugly very quickly.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Twofish – I respect your obvvious ability but you are as stubborn in persisting in your obviously mistaken ideas as I am.

    I recognize that a complex system like the global economy cannot work without a financial component.

    The problem became that the financial sector found that it could make more money inventing new ways to make bets and collecting on these bets, than they could make supplying financing for production. Especially domestic production. BECAUSE THE OPENNESS TO IMPORTS MAKE OVERSEAS INVESTMENTS MORE PRODUCTIVE.

    From my perspective, the Congress should lhave refused to give Paulson the money he wanted. IGA would have failed. Their exposure to Credit Default Swaps would have been settled just like the exposure of Lehman’s was settled. The people who bet wrong in this instance would have suffered the consequences. I know, the suffers would have included a lot of pension funds and other valuable businesses. But, they should have suffered.

    If the free market system had been maintained, new fiinancial institutions would have developed. I bet the Mormon church financial system did not use derivatives.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Running a pencil factory in China may give your prestige but not power. One of the reasons the China system is so powerful is that the ruling elite are determined not to share their power with anyone outside their group. Pencil factories exist only because they are useful to the rulers in maintaining their rule.

    Try to oppose the ruling system, and see what happens to your pencil factory.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Measured productivity per man hour in the U.S. is very high. The trade deficit is also very high. Why doens’t this productivity translate into more sales overseas? I know. We do sell overseas. It is just that we buy more than we sell.

    No matter how you wiggle, the large trade deficit is the elephant in the room. It requires the U.S. to transfer overseas 700billion dollars of U.S. wealth every year and it eliminates U.S. firms every year that cannot sell in the U.S. because better bargins are provided by imports.

    I have no wish to eliminate imports. I just want to tame them – to keep them at a level that is justified by the productivity of the U.S. economy. The more goods we can sell overseas, the better, and the more imports we should use.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Securitization of loans is a dying business, is it not? Who wants to buy a complex instrument that they do not understand, in this environment?

    The financial sector must be downsized. The best and quickest way to do it is to let businesses fail.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    And AIG is a good starting point for letting businesses fail. Just because they are intertwined with other businesses is no reason to provide 130 billion of dollars to them to be used to make good on contracts that should never have been written.

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: Try to oppose the ruling system, and see what happens to your pencil factory.

    Why oppose it as long as the ruling system lets you make money making pencils?

    ReformerRay: No matter how you wiggle, the large trade deficit is the elephant in the room. It requires the U.S. to transfer overseas 700 billion dollars of U.S. wealth every year.

    And that money comes back in the form of purchases of Treasuries and also generates internal wealth within the United States that is worth far more than $700 billion. If you are exporting $700 billion but creating $2 trillion industries, that is good deal.

    ReformerRay: it eliminates U.S. firms every year that cannot sell in the U.S. because better bargins are provided by imports.

    And those firms should be eliminated and replaced by firms that can generate jobs and wealth. Which is what has happened. If you look at the value added by an IPod or a pair of shoes, most of that wealth stays in the United States and creates a lot of high skilled and low skilled jobs.

    One point that I’ve been trying to make is that most of the US firms that trade has eliminated *are already dead*. That changes the political equation since most of the firms in 1985 that wanted trade protection, are no longer in existence.

    ReformerRay: Securitization of loans is a dying business, is it not?

    No. Securitization is quite alive and well. Subprime is dead. CDO’s are dead. Securitization is quite alive and well. People want low risk which means that money is being moved into money market funds which are a prime example of securitization in action. Also someone has to fund the a mortgage.

    ReformerRay: Who wants to buy a complex instrument that they do not understand, in this environment?

    People are quite willing to buy complex instruments that they don’t completely understand if they have credible insurance behind them. Witness the number of people that buy FDIC-insured CD’s and money market funds.

    CD’s and money market funds are incredibly complex instruments (or for that matter so are checking accounts). It’s just that this complexity is hidden from most people, but *someone* has to understand it, and there is a high paying job there for people that do.

    What I hear a lot of people saying is “who needs power companies, I can get electricity just by pluging my computer into the wall socket.” That sounds silly, but people say exactly the same thing when they say “who needs investment banks, I can get money just by buying a money market fund.”

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: And AIG is a good starting point for letting businesses fail. Just because they are intertwined with other businesses is no reason to provide 130 billion of dollars to them to be used to make good on contracts that should never have been written.

    And people find that easy to say until the find out that they have a pension fund that is indirectly invested in AIG, which they lose if AIG goes under. The problem with AIG is that it is so interconnected, that lots of people that don’t think that they have anything to do with AIG and will lose nothing if AIG goes under, are wrong.

    Just to give on example. If AIG goes under, most of the employees of the State University of New York will lose the money in their 403(b) plans. AIG has a huge business administrating the equivalent of 401(k) for a lot of hospitals, schools, and universities. If AIG goes under, all of that is at risk.

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: From my perspective, the Congress should lhave refused to give Paulson the money he wanted. AIG would have failed. Their exposure to Credit Default Swaps would have been settled just like the exposure of Lehman’s was settled.

    This misses the basic problem. Lehman fails. After we settle everything we find that A owes B $1 billion, B owes C $1 billion, C owes A $ billion. Everyone pays everyone else and we find out that no one really owes anyone in the end.

    B is AIG. Suppose AIG was bankrupt. Now A owes B $1 billion, but it’s not about to pay. B owes C $1 billion, but can’t pay, and C owes A $1 billion.

    You have a mess in which everyone suddenly finds that they need massive amounts of cash, even though the net payments are zero. C has to pay A $1 billion right then and there or else file for bankruptcy protection, and if C files for protection, then the dominos just keep falling.

    The thing about depressions is that you end up with stupid things happening. Companies go broke even though no one really ends up owing anyone anything, you have idle factories and out of work people.

  • Posted by flow5

    Couldn’t AIG have been merged with another company and preserved some of the investors money?? (like bank mergers)

  • Posted by flow5

    Twofish:
    “Also one thing that I find interesting and very different from the 1930’s is that there isn’t any interest on the part of anyone to rethink the terms of the global trade system. Part of my discussion with ReformerRay on the other thread came out of thinking about *why* no one important wants to reexamine the global trade system”

    “President Roosevelt sought to encourage trade with the Soviet Union. To promote this trade, the EXPORT-IMPORT BANK was established in 1934. The RFC provided capital, and later loans to the Ex-Im Bank. Interest in loans to support trade was so strong that a SECOND Ex-Im bank was created to fund trade with other foreign nations a month after the first bank was created”

    “These two banks were merged in 1936, with the authority to make loans to encourage exports in general. The Reconstruction Finance Corporation provided $201 million of capital and loans to the Ex-Im Banks”

    However, the U.S. severely restricted imports through sky-high tariffs (Hawley-Smoot, 1931, for example), customs red tape, commodity classifications and other devices. The volume of Federal Reserve Bank credit was determined more by domestic considerations than by gold flows.

    In April, 1933 we nationalized gold, made the dollar inconvertible and by administrative fiat capriciously raised the dollar price of gold in a series of steps from $20.67 to $35 per ounce. This action precipitated a 57% devaluation in the U.S. dollar.

    All of this was done even though were a creditor nation and had a chronic surplus in our balance of payments (like our Pacific Rim trading partners). In January, 1934 the Congress codified these administrative actions into law. Under this modified gold bullion standard, the dollar was convertible on foreign, but not domestic account at $35 per ounce. Thus, in contradistinction, the U.S. exacerbated world trade flow.

  • Posted by Twofish

    flow5: Couldn’t AIG have been merged with another company and preserved some of the investors money?? (like bank mergers)

    Lots of things were tried but everyone that looked at AIG ran away screaming once they saw the books.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    ReformerRay: No matter how you wiggle, the large trade deficit is the elephant in the room. It requires the U.S. to transfer overseas 700 billion dollars of U.S. wealth every year.
    And that money comes back in the form of purchases of Treasuries and also generates internal wealth within the United States that is worth far more than $700 billion. If you are exporting $700 billion but creating $2 trillion industries, that is good deal.

    Twofish – sure, that money comes back to the U.S. (in the form of dollars) and it is exchanged for some other financial asset that the Chinese government or the Japanese government values more than the dollar. This last reality is ignored by those who try to maintain that the trade deficit is somehnow beneficial to the U.S.

    After all the transfers in both directions are concluded, the U.S. has $800 billion dollars worth of goods in its possession to use as it see fit and China or Japan or Germany has part of the $800 billion in financial assets such as U.S. Treasury certificates or ownership of a U.S. firm – all of which pay interest or dividends to the owner – and all of which the new owner can use as they see fit.

    Most of the goods received are used rather quickly. The financial assets transferred overseas retain value, so long as the interest and dividends are paid.

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    This from Twofish. I quote it all because the issue is very important.

    ReformerRay: From my perspective, the Congress should lhave refused to give Paulson the money he wanted. AIG would have failed. Their exposure to Credit Default Swaps would have been settled just like the exposure of Lehman’s was settled.
    This misses the basic problem. Lehman fails. After we settle everything we find that A owes B $1 billion, B owes C $1 billion, C owes A $ billion. Everyone pays everyone else and we find out that no one really owes anyone in the end.
    B is AIG. Suppose AIG was bankrupt. Now A owes B $1 billion, but it’s not about to pay. B owes C $1 billion, but can’t pay, and C owes A $1 billion.
    You have a mess in which everyone suddenly finds that they need massive amounts of cash, even though the net payments are zero. C has to pay A $1 billion right then and there or else file for bankruptcy protection, and if C files for protection, then the dominos just keep falling.

    All I know is that the Depository Swaps Clearning Coriporation reported, on Oct. 21, that all the swaps related to Lehman brothers were settled by the transfer of 5.1 billion dollars to the parties whose purchased insurnce. The site also reported that Lehman had a “nominal” exposure of $400 billion to CDS and DSCC reported that 72 billion of that amount were registered with them before the settlement.

    If Lehman’s could be settled so easily and quickly, why not AIG?

    I know some funds where some of my money is held would be hurt, but what the heck, they have multiplied my money in the past.

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