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	<title>Comments on: Deep thoughts</title>
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		<title>By: Brad Setser: Follow the Money &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The US government has already proved it can raise over $1.5 trillion in a year ..</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-122218</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Setser: Follow the Money &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The US government has already proved it can raise over $1.5 trillion in a year ..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-122218</guid>
		<description>[...] large deficit projected for fiscal 2009 stunned many. It is natural to wonder how such a huge deficit could be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] large deficit projected for fiscal 2009 stunned many. It is natural to wonder how such a huge deficit could be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Elaine Meinel Supkis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-122160</link>
		<dc:creator>Elaine Meinel Supkis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-122160</guid>
		<description>Comparing GDP to our overspending and then comparing it to CREDITOR nations like China or Japan is ridiculous, Brad.  Stop it.  You are making my head hurt.

It is like a drunken spendthrift comparing how he &#039;saves&#039; money when comparing himself to a thrifty banker.  China is a bank, the US is a bankrupt.  

The US, unlike China or Japan, has overrun its trade by almost $8 trillion.  This money is not a small amount even in Brad&#039;s little universe.  It is HUGE and GROWING EVEN BIGGER.  Got that, Brad? 

Please stop with the minimizing of what is wrong.  The US cannot run trade deficits forever any more than it can run budget deficits forever.  Period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing GDP to our overspending and then comparing it to CREDITOR nations like China or Japan is ridiculous, Brad.  Stop it.  You are making my head hurt.</p>
<p>It is like a drunken spendthrift comparing how he &#8217;saves&#8217; money when comparing himself to a thrifty banker.  China is a bank, the US is a bankrupt.  </p>
<p>The US, unlike China or Japan, has overrun its trade by almost $8 trillion.  This money is not a small amount even in Brad&#8217;s little universe.  It is HUGE and GROWING EVEN BIGGER.  Got that, Brad? </p>
<p>Please stop with the minimizing of what is wrong.  The US cannot run trade deficits forever any more than it can run budget deficits forever.  Period.</p>
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		<title>By: Emmanuel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-122107</link>
		<dc:creator>Emmanuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-122107</guid>
		<description>Point taken on investment. However, it is more likely that firm savings will go &lt;b&gt;down&lt;/b&gt; as I have noted in the post linked above. With profits dropping in virtually all American industries, retained earnings are set to fall, not increase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point taken on investment. However, it is more likely that firm savings will go <b>down</b> as I have noted in the post linked above. With profits dropping in virtually all American industries, retained earnings are set to fall, not increase.</p>
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		<title>By: bsetser</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121855</link>
		<dc:creator>bsetser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121855</guid>
		<description>Emmanuel -- Goldman forecasts that the US private sector&#039;s net savings will swing from a surplus of 1% of GDP at the end of q2 08 to a surplus of 9% of q4 09.   i would have to go back and look but i think they are assuming that household savings rises to around 5% of disposable income (negative wealth effects + credit cosntraints).    Private sector savings also includes business savings.   But a core part of their forecast is something that you discount: a big fall in private investment, and not just in residential investment.

think of alcoa cutting capital spending, and a sharp fall in commercial real estate investment (read CR).  i don&#039;t think it is far fetched.  my guess is that the CBO has a similar embedded assumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emmanuel &#8212; Goldman forecasts that the US private sector&#8217;s net savings will swing from a surplus of 1% of GDP at the end of q2 08 to a surplus of 9% of q4 09.   i would have to go back and look but i think they are assuming that household savings rises to around 5% of disposable income (negative wealth effects + credit cosntraints).    Private sector savings also includes business savings.   But a core part of their forecast is something that you discount: a big fall in private investment, and not just in residential investment.</p>
<p>think of alcoa cutting capital spending, and a sharp fall in commercial real estate investment (read CR).  i don&#8217;t think it is far fetched.  my guess is that the CBO has a similar embedded assumption.</p>
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		<title>By: Emmanuel</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121839</link>
		<dc:creator>Emmanuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121839</guid>
		<description>Dr. Setser, you know what I have to say about household savings making up for the fiscal deficit. It &lt;a href=&quot;http://ipezone.blogspot.com/2008/12/pettis-will-hh-savings-make-up-us.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;doesn&#039;t add up&lt;/a&gt;--unless you can provide another set of numbers to back this assertion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Setser, you know what I have to say about household savings making up for the fiscal deficit. It <a href="http://ipezone.blogspot.com/2008/12/pettis-will-hh-savings-make-up-us.html" rel="nofollow">doesn&#8217;t add up</a>&#8211;unless you can provide another set of numbers to back this assertion.</p>
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		<title>By: bsetser</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121834</link>
		<dc:creator>bsetser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 07:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121834</guid>
		<description>Geert -- China has attracted large net FDI inflows over the last few quarters (that may be slowing) and attracted large hot money inflows in q4 07, q1 08 and q2 08.  that pushed (in my view) real reserves growth, counting hidden reserves, up to the $700b range.  i&#039;ll have detailed data on this up soon in a post.  I am waiting for the q4 chinese data but that may tell a different story as hot money flows have reversed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geert &#8212; China has attracted large net FDI inflows over the last few quarters (that may be slowing) and attracted large hot money inflows in q4 07, q1 08 and q2 08.  that pushed (in my view) real reserves growth, counting hidden reserves, up to the $700b range.  i&#8217;ll have detailed data on this up soon in a post.  I am waiting for the q4 chinese data but that may tell a different story as hot money flows have reversed.</p>
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		<title>By: geert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121832</link>
		<dc:creator>geert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 06:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121832</guid>
		<description>Brad: &quot;But the total increase in China’s foreign assets — counting its hidden reserves — from September 2007 to September 2008 likely came close to matching the US current account deficit over that time.&quot;

Sorry if this sounds stupid but I cannot make my math fit.

Rough figures for the past 12 months 
- china has a c/a surplus of $ 370 (biggest chunk is the trade surplus $ 278 B)
- us has a c/a deficit of $ 700 B (biggest chunk is the trade deficit of $ 850 B)
Basically the Chinese central bank gets the excess dollars (dollars from the exporters minus dollars demanded by the importers = $ 280 B)

Now if we assume that the Chinese trade surplus only exists of $, something not true because it has a trade surplus with he euro area too, then China can at most invest $ 370 billion in US treasuries.

Nevertheless I constantly read that China finances the US trade deficit at a rate of $ 50 billion a month.
It looks to me the world as an entity is financing the US deficit. Link http://www.treas.gov/tic/snetusq.txt

Or do I miss something that is in the capital account of the balance of payments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad: &#8220;But the total increase in China’s foreign assets — counting its hidden reserves — from September 2007 to September 2008 likely came close to matching the US current account deficit over that time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry if this sounds stupid but I cannot make my math fit.</p>
<p>Rough figures for the past 12 months<br />
- china has a c/a surplus of $ 370 (biggest chunk is the trade surplus $ 278 B)<br />
- us has a c/a deficit of $ 700 B (biggest chunk is the trade deficit of $ 850 B)<br />
Basically the Chinese central bank gets the excess dollars (dollars from the exporters minus dollars demanded by the importers = $ 280 B)</p>
<p>Now if we assume that the Chinese trade surplus only exists of $, something not true because it has a trade surplus with he euro area too, then China can at most invest $ 370 billion in US treasuries.</p>
<p>Nevertheless I constantly read that China finances the US trade deficit at a rate of $ 50 billion a month.<br />
It looks to me the world as an entity is financing the US deficit. Link <a href="http://www.treas.gov/tic/snetusq.txt" rel="nofollow">http://www.treas.gov/tic/snetusq.txt</a></p>
<p>Or do I miss something that is in the capital account of the balance of payments?</p>
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		<title>By: auskalo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121822</link>
		<dc:creator>auskalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121822</guid>
		<description>Definitive from CR:

I expect 100s of small bank failures over the next couple of years due to excessive CRE loan concentrations. I predict Bank Failure Fridays will be even busier in 2009 than 2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitive from CR:</p>
<p>I expect 100s of small bank failures over the next couple of years due to excessive CRE loan concentrations. I predict Bank Failure Fridays will be even busier in 2009 than 2008.</p>
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		<title>By: Indian Investor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121820</link>
		<dc:creator>Indian Investor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121820</guid>
		<description>@don: Appropos your previous comment, I&#039;m not really concerned with nationalism. For instance, if there&#039;s a very strong reason to believe that the export sector in India is going to collapse much further due to global protectionism then I would simply forecast much lower levels on the Nifty and that&#039;s about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@don: Appropos your previous comment, I&#8217;m not really concerned with nationalism. For instance, if there&#8217;s a very strong reason to believe that the export sector in India is going to collapse much further due to global protectionism then I would simply forecast much lower levels on the Nifty and that&#8217;s about it.</p>
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		<title>By: auskalo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/01/07/deep-thoughts/#comment-121809</link>
		<dc:creator>auskalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4401#comment-121809</guid>
		<description>This is better:

Waiting for Godot: Until workers begin buying stuff the economy is not going to pick up. And until workers pay their debts down - or have them forgiven - they are not able to buy stuff for they have no credit and little income. So we&#039;re all sitting here, waiting. It could be a long time, pull up a chair.

Moral, Legal, Common: Part of the new stimulus program will give judges the right to change contracts. The history of Anglo-Saxon law is based on the sanctity of contracts; the contract between the ruler and the subject, contracts between traders, contracts that convey property, even marriage is a contract. There is a very long, slowly developed canon of laws supported by precedent, common sense and moral deliberation. Let&#039;s toss that all away and force investors to lose money - even though half the populace doesn&#039;t think it&#039;s a good idea. It&#039;s bound to strengthen the politicians economy.

Guarding the Guards: In a former life I was in the security business. When asked to provide armed guards, I always asked for a list of the folks whose death the client&#039;s insurance covered. I&#039;m not in that business any more. There&#039;s at least one BART officer who isn&#039;t either.

Another Day Another Dollar Billion: Fifteen billion, actually. From Paulson to his retirement fund at Citibank, $20 billion, plus big chunks to PNC Financial and Fifth Third Bankcorp to help them digest the banks they&#039;ve gobbled up.

Buzz Off: Terrorists are hiding out in the swamps, training insects to carry plague or anthrax or tiny nuclear weapons into our cities Be afraid, please, please, be afraid! I liked it better when they were going to build nuclear bombs and drive them around in rental trucks spreading clouds of anthrax..

Takes One to Know One: The GOP insists that the stimulus not be rushed through Congress like TARP was. And the Patriot Act. They also insist that the funds be accountable and targeted, unlike TARP. And that the programs have definite endpoints, unlike Iraq. And they want most of it to go to business, just like always.

On the Square: The Chinese government anticipates &quot;a period of mass incidents&quot; as million of workers lose their jobs, university graduates remain unemployed, and economic growth falters. The government is expected to encourage domestic tranquility and is reviewing film from Tiananmen Square .

In the Shade: China&#039;s LDK Solar declined 14% on weaker sales and reported that a planned increase in polysilicon production will be delayed. Does a similar fate await the billion dollar Hemlock Semiconductor project in Tennessee?

Einer Hat Es Befohlen: Turns out David Lereah, for all the time he was at the National Association of Realors, had a gun to his head and was forced to make all those silly predictions. He was, he said, just doing his job.

He Said Then The Other Guy Said: Ukrainian reports that Gazprom sent but 92 million cubic meters of gas to Europe on Tuesday, down from about 300 mcm previously. Russia will, of course, claim that they have not reduced gas intended for Europe and that the shortfall is due to Ukrainian siphoning. It&#039;s good to see the old traditions are being kept up. Happy New Year

All in Favor say Aye! &quot;The current downturn is likely to be far longer and deeper than the &quot;garden-variety&quot; recession in which GDP bounces back quickly&quot;. It&#039;s becoming the popular view, so be careful.

Seeing is Believing: There are any number of charts comparing now to then and now to average and they&#039;re pretty to look at. Print them out, shuffle and deal and see who gets the best hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is better:</p>
<p>Waiting for Godot: Until workers begin buying stuff the economy is not going to pick up. And until workers pay their debts down &#8211; or have them forgiven &#8211; they are not able to buy stuff for they have no credit and little income. So we&#8217;re all sitting here, waiting. It could be a long time, pull up a chair.</p>
<p>Moral, Legal, Common: Part of the new stimulus program will give judges the right to change contracts. The history of Anglo-Saxon law is based on the sanctity of contracts; the contract between the ruler and the subject, contracts between traders, contracts that convey property, even marriage is a contract. There is a very long, slowly developed canon of laws supported by precedent, common sense and moral deliberation. Let&#8217;s toss that all away and force investors to lose money &#8211; even though half the populace doesn&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a good idea. It&#8217;s bound to strengthen the politicians economy.</p>
<p>Guarding the Guards: In a former life I was in the security business. When asked to provide armed guards, I always asked for a list of the folks whose death the client&#8217;s insurance covered. I&#8217;m not in that business any more. There&#8217;s at least one BART officer who isn&#8217;t either.</p>
<p>Another Day Another Dollar Billion: Fifteen billion, actually. From Paulson to his retirement fund at Citibank, $20 billion, plus big chunks to PNC Financial and Fifth Third Bankcorp to help them digest the banks they&#8217;ve gobbled up.</p>
<p>Buzz Off: Terrorists are hiding out in the swamps, training insects to carry plague or anthrax or tiny nuclear weapons into our cities Be afraid, please, please, be afraid! I liked it better when they were going to build nuclear bombs and drive them around in rental trucks spreading clouds of anthrax..</p>
<p>Takes One to Know One: The GOP insists that the stimulus not be rushed through Congress like TARP was. And the Patriot Act. They also insist that the funds be accountable and targeted, unlike TARP. And that the programs have definite endpoints, unlike Iraq. And they want most of it to go to business, just like always.</p>
<p>On the Square: The Chinese government anticipates &#8220;a period of mass incidents&#8221; as million of workers lose their jobs, university graduates remain unemployed, and economic growth falters. The government is expected to encourage domestic tranquility and is reviewing film from Tiananmen Square .</p>
<p>In the Shade: China&#8217;s LDK Solar declined 14% on weaker sales and reported that a planned increase in polysilicon production will be delayed. Does a similar fate await the billion dollar Hemlock Semiconductor project in Tennessee?</p>
<p>Einer Hat Es Befohlen: Turns out David Lereah, for all the time he was at the National Association of Realors, had a gun to his head and was forced to make all those silly predictions. He was, he said, just doing his job.</p>
<p>He Said Then The Other Guy Said: Ukrainian reports that Gazprom sent but 92 million cubic meters of gas to Europe on Tuesday, down from about 300 mcm previously. Russia will, of course, claim that they have not reduced gas intended for Europe and that the shortfall is due to Ukrainian siphoning. It&#8217;s good to see the old traditions are being kept up. Happy New Year</p>
<p>All in Favor say Aye! &#8220;The current downturn is likely to be far longer and deeper than the &#8220;garden-variety&#8221; recession in which GDP bounces back quickly&#8221;. It&#8217;s becoming the popular view, so be careful.</p>
<p>Seeing is Believing: There are any number of charts comparing now to then and now to average and they&#8217;re pretty to look at. Print them out, shuffle and deal and see who gets the best hand.</p>
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