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The shadow financial system – as illustrated in three new papers that cut through the London fog

by Brad Setser
March 8, 2009

Gordon Brown wants to shine a bit more light on the shadow financial system (hat tip IPEZone). One plank of his G-20 action plan is:

“reform of international regulation to close regulatory gaps so shadow banking systems have nowhere to hide”

It isn’t exactly clear though why Brown needs the cooperation of the other members of the G-20 to do increase transparency here: an awful lot of the shadow financial system is based in the UK. If the UK collected the kind of detailed data that the US collects in the TIC, a large part of the shadow financial system would either emerge from the shadows or a lot of banks – and bankers – would need to migrate. And given how much trouble has emerged from the shadows, a bit more transparency about what goes on in the UK might have helped the world’s regulators (and the IMF) do a better job of providing a bit more “early warning” of budding problems.

Think of the various less-than-transparent actors that have set up shop in London

– Many sovereign wealth funds.
– A lot of the SIVs set up by US (and European) banks were legally domiciled in the UK
– Some credit hedge funds
- And most importantly, a host of European banks with large dollar books (think of them as badly regulated credit hedge funds) ran a large part of the dollar exposure through London.

There was a reason, after all, why residents in the UK were the largest purchaser of US corporate debt over the past few years. Corporate debt – in the US balance of payments data – includes asset-backed securities. Foreign purchases of such debt soared – especially from 2004 to 2007 – before falling off a cliff during the crisis.

Three recent papers – one from the Bank of Spain and two in the latest BIS quarterly – have shed a bit of light on the true nature of the all the flows through the UK over the past few years. Had there been an international “early warning” system that was on the ball – and had the UK been willing to collect the data on flows through the UK in the face of inevitable complaints that such efforts would drive business abroad – it might well have picked up on some of these flows as a sign of brewing trouble in global financial markets.

One potential warning sign: during the peak of its lending and credit boom, the US couldn’t finance its external deficit by borrowing from private creditors. That is the conclusion of Enrique Alberola and Jose Maria Serena’s recent Bank of Spain working paper – a paper that investigation into the role central banks and sovereign wealth funds played in financing the US current account deficit.*

Alberola and Serena used the same basic technique that I have used in the past to estimate official flows. Rather than work off the US data – which misses official flows through London – they worked off the IMF’s data on global reserves and national data on the balance of payments of countries with large sovereign funds. They estimated the dollar share of the reserves of countries that don’t report data on the currency composition of their reserves to the IMF (they used a conservative 60% share) and the dollar share of sovereign wealth funds (40% or so) and came to the same conclusion that I reached: at their peak, the total growth in the dollar assets of central banks and sovereign wealth funds exceeded the US current account deficit:

“the importance of sovereign external assets [sovereign wealth funds and central bank reserves] increased in the last years, surpassing the trillion dollars in 2007 and thus representing over half of gross capital inflows into the US last year.”

In 2007, gross inflows were bulked up by the two-way flow associated with the shadow banking system for at least part of the year; the fact that sovereign flows exceeded the current account deficit and represented half of the gross flows is truly incredible. When revised balance of payments data data for 2008 comes out, the “sovereign” share of gross flows will be even larger.

Alberola and Serena also try to place the debate over sovereign funds in the context of the debate over imbalances – rather than say a debate over “investment protectionism.” They note that the money sovereign funds recycled into external assets helped sustain the US deficit:

“reserves and SWF assets should be jointly considered for the assessment of global imbalances. Both are official capital outflows from developing to developed countries, both hinder internal adjustment in current account surplus countries, both help to cover the financing needs of deficit countries, in particular the US and therefore both contributed to sustain[ed] global imbalances.”

I couldn’t agree more.

Obviously, though, much has changed in the last two quarters. Global reserve growth likely turned negative in the fourth quarter of 08 as private capital fled the emerging world – and the Gulf’s sovereign funds are now net sellers of the financial asset of the world’s mature economies. But Alberola and Serena’s work still highlights that the official sector has accounted for a large fraction of the global flow of funds over the past few years, and a bit more transparency from the countries assembled around the G-20’s table (China especially, but the Saudis could do more too …) would help bring some flows out of the shadows. The UK could help fill in the data on the global flow of funds by making a real effort to track the money flowing in (and out) of the UK. Efforts to bring shadowy flows to the light shouldn’t hinge on the willing of China, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates to increase their transparency.

Sovereign wealth funds (and central banks that started to act like sovereign funds at the tail end of the boom) aren’t the only – or even the most important – “dark” financial flow. The shadow financial system that grew up in London and elsewhere was primarily populated by leveraged private investors.

Two papers (one on US money market funds’ role funding European banks and one on European banks dollar funding needs) in the BIS quarterly shed some light on the role European financial institutions played in the rise – and the subsequent fall – of US credit markets.

The first paper – by Baba, McCauley and Ramaswamy – explains how US money market funds were a crucial channel for transmitting the financial stress caused by Lehman’s default to Europe’s banks (and then back to US credit markets).

It turns out that Lehman (and no doubt other investment banks) and European banks both borrowed heavily from the US money markets. In effect, they shared a common creditor – “prime” money market funds – and when Lehman’s default led the reserve primary fund to break the buck and massive withdrawals from “prime” money market funds – European banks lost access to dollar financing. Baba, McCauley and Ramaswamy write: “the run on US dollar money market funds after the Lehman failure stressed global interbank markets because the funds bulked so large as suppliers of US dollars to non-US banks.”

This isn’t really news. There is a reason why the Fed lent $600 billion to European central banks so those central banks – the Fed was making up for collapse of dollar funding from US money market funds. (see graph 6 on p.77)

Baba, McCauley and Ramaswamy highlight the huge growth in the dollar assets of European banks over the last eight years. Those assets increased from $2 trillion to around $8 trillion (with Swiss banks accounting for about ½ the total). That growth “outran their retail dollar deposits,” making Europe’s banks reliant on wholesale dollar funding in much the same way that the growth in the assets of the US broker dealers made them reliant on wholesale funding. US money market funds that weren’t limited to Treasury and Agency paper happily met this need: “competition to offer investors higher yields, however, led them to buy the paper of non-US headquartered firms to harvest the Yankee premium.”

The BIS estimates that US money market funds were supplying $1 trillion of credit to non-US banks in mid-2008 (dollar denominated European money market funds supplied another $180b ….). That is far more dollar financing than supplied by the offshore dollar deposits of the world’s central banks: “by contrast, central banks … provided only $500 billion to European banks at the peak of their holdings in the third quarter of 2007.”

Still, those looking for a direct (rather than indirect) link between central bank reserve growth and boom in lending to US households can find a link here. A fraction of central bank dollar reserves were held in deposit in European banks – and another fraction was invested in onshore and offshore dollar-denominated money market funds. European banks used those sources of dollar “funding’ to buy securities backed by loans to US households. The growth in their balance sheets undoubtedly explains the huge increase in cross border flows (outflows from US money market funds financed the inflows associated with European banks purchases of US securities) during the boom years – and large corporate debt purchases through the UK.

The second BIS paper — by Patrick McGuire and Goetz von Peter on the “US dollar shortage in global banking” — uses the BIS banking data (actually, I would say that they tortured the banking data, as the data didn’t yield its secrets without a tremendous amount of effort) to estimate European banks need for dollar funding. It is superb.

The results are interesting, to say the least. They confirm that the losses that money market funds that held Lehman paper were a key channel of contagion, as European banks depended on US money market funds to meet their need for dollar funding.

Among other things, McGuire and von Peter find:

– “European banks experienced the most pronounced growth in foreign claims relative to underlying measures of economic activity.”
– “After 2000, some banking systems took on increasingly large net on-balance sheet positions in foreign currencies, particularly in US dollars. While the associated currency exposures were presumably hedged off balance sheet, the buildup of large net US dollar positions exposed these banks to funding risk , or the risk that their funding positions could not be rolled over.”
– “A lower bound estimate of banks’ funding gap … shows that the major European banks funding needs were substantial ($1.1 to $1.3 trillion by mid-2007).”
– UK banks, for example, borrowed in pounds sterling [some $800b] in order to finance their corresponding long positions in US dollar, euros and other foreign currencies. By mid-2007 their long US dollar positions surpassed $300b, on an estimated $2 trillion in gross US dollar claims. Similarly, Germany and Swiss banks net dollar books approached $300b by mid-2007, while that of Dutch banks surpassed $150b …. ” Setser note: this created large positions that needed to be hedged, and meant that if UK banks couldn’t raise a lot of sterling funding to swap into dollars, they would need to go out into the market and borrow dollars directly …
– The term structure of the fx swaps Eurpoean banks used to transform their pound and euro funding into dollars “are even short-eterm on average” than dollars borrowed on the interbank market.
– “these estimates suggest that European banks’ US dollar investments in non-banks [read holdings of dollar securities and corporate loans] were subject to considerable funding risk …. The major European banks US dollar funding gap reached $1.1-1.3 trillion by mid-2007. Until the onset of the crisis European banks had met this need by tapping the interbank market ($400 billion) and borrowing from central banks ($380 billion) and used FX swaps ($800 billion) to convert (primarily) domestic currency funding into dollars.”

By the way, US banks were net borrowers from the rest of the world – but most of their borrowing came from a few Caribbean islands – and those islands borrowed heavily from “non-bank” counterparties in the US. The BIS doesn’t think this represents a true external flow: “this could be regarded as an extension of US banks domestic activity since it does not reflect (direct) funding from non-banks outside the United States.”

The subprime crisis in August 2007 put these funding arrangements under stress. And they effectively collapsed after Lehman, leading to a scramble for dollars – or a “dollar shortage.” In the fourth quarter, the US government was a net LENDER to the rest of the world. Inflows from central banks were dwarfed by the $400 billion in swap lines the US provided European central banks. That is rather strange; deficit countries usually aren’t net lenders … but, well, a lot of institutions really were desperate for dollars.

The main source of stress on European banks came from the withdrawal of money market funding and the difficulties obtaining currency swaps. But it seems like European banks also lost another source of dollar funding: the world’s central banks.

Emerging economies were facing their own liquidity shortage – and emerging market banks in particular. Their home central bank helped them out. Countries with lots of dollar reserves though didn’t need to turn to the Fed for dollars. They could withdraw dollars from European banks and put them on deposit in their local banking system.

“A portion of the US dollar foreign exchange reserves that central banks had placed with commercial banks was withdrawn during the course of the crisis. In particular, some money authorities in emerging markets reportedly withdrew placements in support of their own banking systems in need of US dollars. Market conditions made it difficult for banks to respond to these funding pressures by reducing their dollar assets …. “

That links the work of the BIS back to the work of the Alberola and Serena of the Bank of Spain. It was long argued that official investors were intrinsically stabilizing investors – and thus that they would never trigger a funding crisis or add to market distress. And it is certainly true that central banks haven’t triggered a dollar crisis. Indeed, they almost certainly prevented one in 2006 and 2007 when they added crazy sums to their reserves, preventing the dollar from falling against a host of emerging currencies. At the same time, central bank reserve managers haven’t been a stabilizing force in the credit market during this crisis.

– Central bank reserve managers – led by China and Russia – shifted massively out of Agencies and into Treasuries. And that shift came after a long period when central banks kept buying Agency bonds even as (in retrospect) the quality of the Agencies balance sheet was eroding, as they were lending against collateral inflated by housing bubble.
– Central banks shifted dollars out of European banks short of dollars to their home countries banking system.

The first flow represents a flight to safety. The second flow represents a flight from the risk associated with global banks – but putting funds on deposit in shaky local banks isn’t necessarily the safest of investment either. It was a flow driven by the banks need to stabilize their own markets.

In both cases the offsetting flow – the flow that prevented an even deeper crisis than we have seen to date – came from the US Federal Reserve. They should get a bit of credit.

I don’t blame the central bank reserve managers for adding to the distress in dollar-denominated credit markets. Central bank reserve managers’ core mission is to safeguard their countries external assets and meet their own countries need for hard currency financing, not to stabilize the international financial system. But I do think that there should have been a bit more discussion of the various ways the actions of central banks could add to a crisis. And perhaps the central banks – and the IMF — shouldn’t have been quite so willing to argue that official investors were an intrinsically stabilizing presence in the market.

*It is striking that this paper came from the Bank of Spain, not the IMF. While the Bank of Spain was delving into the role the official sector played in financing the US deficit, the IMF’s 2007 article IV report by contrast emphasized private flows, arguing that the United States comparative advantage at producing complex financial products would sustain external demand for US assets. Bad call. There is no hint in the IMF’s analysis that most such demand was coming from the SIVs US banks had set up in London/ European banks that relied on US money market funds to support their dollar balance sheets.
**It is notable, at least to me, that the regulators focused on the risk Lehman’s failure posed to the CDS market but not – at least from what has been reported – on the risk that Lehman’s failure posed to the money markets, and thus to all the institutions that relied on the money markets for financing. This suggests to me that the regulators didn’t fully understand the role European banks were playing in US credit markets – or how exactly they funded their positions – until the crisis made their funding needs acute. I suspect that it took the crisis for the researchers at the BIS to be able to figure out how to use the BIS data to estimate European banks need for wholesale dollar funding.

50 Comments

  • Posted by arthur margon

    This nonsense about regulation driving business away is pretty easy to address: a G-20 cartel doing basic, uniform regulation. If an investment bank or fund wants to avoid it all by locating in some haven, caveat emptor, just don’t let G-20 regulated insurers insure them, or G-20 pension schemes invest with them. There is no level playing field without a uniform regulatory regime –and Basel II is a joke, as we’ve found out.

  • Posted by DOR

    At end-February, Hong Kong announced it would draft legislation to establish the necessary bureaucracy to monitor the banking system so that it can comply with the 2004 OECD protocols on double taxation treaty exchange of information provisions. This weekend, Singapore announced that it will do the same.

    Both are the result of EU (and later, OECD and US) pressure on tax-friendly financial centers to help the EU and US tax their citizens on wealth held outside the jurisdiction of their respective tax authorities.

    Does regulation drive away money? Hong Kong lost billions in personal estate wealth management to Singapore when the latter eliminated death taxes on non-residents. Hong Kong responded by deleting such taxes altogether, and the money is flowing back.
    Short answer: Yes.

  • Posted by jonathan

    You buried the very interesting point that the regulators couldn’t have understood this or they would have acted differently.

    And yes, another thing to blame Britain for – and, no, I’m not Icelandic.

    It seems there were many black boxes operating. Some were out and out Ponzi schemes. Others were loss models built on historical data that excluded really big losses. And others were secrecy rules that obscured the real relationships.

  • Posted by lia

    Thanks
    May be one day interest could drawn from countries position when vilepending fiscal paradise status versus their own domestic offshore fiscal icentives?

  • Posted by Indian Investor

    Brad: This suggests to me that the regulators didn’t fully understand the role European banks were playing in US credit markets – or how exactly they funded their positions – until the crisis made their funding needs acute.

    Me: I’ve read some speculative essays on this topic from the usual suspects – private geopolitical analysts who surprisingly never criticize the Kremlin decisions. The conjecture is that Lehman was singled out and deliberately allowed to collapse because of its connection with the European banking system, specifically targeting Germany for challenging the reserve currency status of the US dollar.

  • Posted by Blissex

    «Both are official capital outflows from developing to developed countries, both hinder internal adjustment in current account surplus countries, both help to cover the financing needs of deficit countries, in particular the US and therefore both contributed to sustain[ed] global imbalances.»

    What they aren’t saying it that they were intentional imbalances, on both sides.

    In effect the countries exporting cheap capital to the USA in the past decade were underwriting the political strategy of the Republican party and of their campaign donors, financing deficits caused by Republican tax cuts, fueling asset price rises, and most importantly financing the USA wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    As to the latter, in effect purchases of USA government debts at nugatory interest rates has been a purchase of war bonds by foreigners instead of residents. Just like for Gulf War 1, most of the funding for Gulf War 2 has come from the Saudis and Japan (and China this time), but as subsidized loans instead of outright grants.

    The irony in all this is that the source of the the cheap capital lent to the USA by foreigners to subsidize Republican tax cuts, asset bubbles and wars has been the USA itself, via its trade deficit; the lending countries have in effect collected trade “tax” from the USA, thanks to the massive offshoring and outsourcing of productive capacity from the USA to themselves, greatly aided by the “strong dollar” policy, and lent it back to the USA to support the political strategies of the Republicans (which included that massive offshoring and outsourcing and “strong dollar” policies to break the back of the unions enemies of that party and reward the asset owners sponsoring that party).

  • Posted by Blissex

    «to support the political strategies of the Republicans»

    As to this, if one takes a longer historical perspective, it is more precisely to support the political strategies of the Confederacy in their endless (and largely successful) attempts to reverse parts of the outcome of 1865.

    The other reason of that war was the policy of the Union to support northern industry via a relatively weak currency, relatively high wages, and tariffs to make imports of cheap manufactures more expensive. The Confederacy instead had a policy of cheap wages and a high dollar to make imports of manufactures less expensive and to reward rentiers.

    By allying itself with China/India/Japan and Wall Street (which was on the side of the Union long ago has switched sides to the Confederacy in the past several decades) the Confederacy have been able to effectively destroy the Union industrial sector and its labor movement at once.

  • Posted by Twofish

    Blissex: The Confederacy instead had a policy of cheap wages and a high dollar to make imports of manufactures less expensive and to reward rentiers.

    It was more to support cotton and agriculture. Also things do change, during the early 19th century, it was New England that wanted low tariffs because it was dependent on trade with England, and the South that wanted high tariffs, which led the the Hartford convention and the threatened secession of New England.

    The problem with the “it’s all a conspiracy to help Republicans” is that it doesn’t explain why New York and California are solid blue states or why financial firms and people making over $250,000 supported Obama and the Democrats this time around. Also even if there was a great conspiracy, it obviously didn’t work, since Karl Rove’s dream of a permanent Republican majority is in pieces right now.

    At least until 2010, the Republicans are out of the picture, and the real arguments are going to be between various groups within the Democratic party.

  • Posted by Kaushal

    Thanks – wide eyed me has again got a whole lot of idea here to digest.

  • Posted by Twofish

    margon: If an investment bank or fund wants to avoid it all by locating in some haven, caveat emptor, just don’t let G-20 regulated insurers insure them, or G-20 pension schemes invest with them.

    In which case, no one sets up pensions any more but “retirement certificates.” Also caveat emptor doesn’t work very well because the emptor may be doing something stupid that could bring down the whole system.

    Also looking at AIG, I get the sense that a lot of the complexity in the company was created for the express purpose of making things complicated and impossible to track.

    Indian: This suggests to me that the regulators didn’t fully understand the role European banks were playing in US credit markets – or how exactly they funded their positions – until the crisis made their funding needs acute.

    They didn’t. Now it should be clear why Treasury is acting very slowly (and in Paul Krugman’s opinion much too slowly) at fixing the banks. There are a likely to be a lot of land mines still there.

    This is also why the Chinese government tends to be very slow and deliberate at doing things like revaluation. It’s not that they are particularly smart is that in the early 1990′s they ended up learning a lot of the same painful lessons that Washington is relearning now.

  • Posted by Twofish

    bsetser: Had there been an international “early warning” system that was on the ball – and had the UK been willing to collect the data on flows through the UK in the face of inevitable complaints that such efforts would drive business abroad – it might well have picked up on some of these flows as a sign of brewing trouble in global financial markets.

    Which would have resulted in absolutely nothing happening as long as people still were making money. Also monitoring international flows really doesn’t address the main problem which was sub-prime lending in the United States. You can monitor international flows all you want, but it wouldn’t have made a difference once the mortgage bubble blew up in the United States, and if people were willing to ignore the obvious signs of a credit bubble in the United States, then I don’t see how more statistics would have helped things.

  • Posted by Twofish

    bsetser: Emerging economies were facing their own liquidity shortage – and emerging market banks in particular. Their home central bank helped them out. Countries with lots of dollar reserves though didn’t need to turn to the Fed for dollars. They could withdraw dollars from European banks and put them on deposit in their local banking system.

    It’s true that people were pulling money out of European banks, but I think the motivation was wrong. It wasn’t so much that they needed money to shore up their local banking system. It was the fact that had AIG fallen, then European banks would have been totally insolvent, and people wanted to get their money before it disappeared. It was your classic bank run, and it was only stopped when the European banks guaranteed all bank deposits, at which point the United States had to do the same thing.

    bsetser: The UK could help fill in the data on the global flow of funds by making a real effort to track the money flowing in (and out) of the UK. Efforts to bring shadowy flows to the light shouldn’t hinge on the willing of China, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates to increase their transparency.

    It does. If the UK starts tracking money, and China, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE don’t want the money to be tracked, it will move out of UK and into Singapore, Hong Kong, or Dubai.

    bsetser: The second flow represents a flight from the risk associated with global banks – but putting funds on deposit in shaky local banks isn’t necessarily the safest of investment either. It was a flow driven by the banks need to stabilize their own markets.

    The week that Lehman fell, local emerging market banks were far, far safer than European banks. European banks had huge exposures either direct or indirect to Lehman (mostly through AIG), and there were some very tense moments when you had the prospect of massive bank runs.

    The notion that developed world banks are “safer” because they have better risk management practices or are inherently safer at all is just an idea that we have to kill, since it isn’t true.

    Also all of these credit flows are interesting, but I worry that they distract from the big picture which was the trigger in the first place. Once a major investment bank falls, you were destined to have mass chaos in the world markets.

    bsetser: And perhaps the central banks – and the IMF — shouldn’t have been quite so willing to argue that official investors were an intrinsically stabilizing presence in the market.

    I do think that a small number of official actors does stabilize things because you can get everyone in a room and say “well people, what the hell do we do to keep the system from collapsing.”

  • Posted by RebelEconomist

    A fascinating story, Brad. I am a bit surprised to hear how much money central banks had placed with European banks, and wonder whether the BIS were involved in some way themselves – ie as a conduit from central banks to the European banks.

  • Posted by Twofish

    I’m still trying to figure out what UK TIC data would have gotten us, since it seems to be that it would have flagged an fact that everyone knew (i.e. lots of UK money comes from China and the Middle East) and done nothing to flag the crucial incredibly important fact that nearly caused the world to fall apart (how dependent European banks were on AIG in supplying CDS’s to keep themselves solvent).

    Also, the fact that emerging markets were pulling money from European banks seems to be to be someone irrelevant in the context that the week after Lehman fell *everyone* was pulling money from European banks. Singling out emerging market just misses the problem, which was that if AIG fell, Europe would have been insolvent.

  • Posted by bsetser

    2fish — UK tic data would have inidicated that private borrowers in the uk were big borrowers from the US, and private financial institutions in the UK — not official actors — were big buyers of US ABS. It also would make clear exactly what the gulf is and isn’t buying, and thus make it clear what risks have been dispersed and what risks have not.

    I don’t think either I or the underlying papers suggested central banks were the only actors pulling money out of European banks post-Lehman. Clearly Us money market funds pulled funds from Eurpoean banks, and that was the main short-term source of pressure. The withdrawal by central banks is an interesting side note.

    Tis true that the developed safe/ developing risk argument doesn’t really work anymore. But i wouldn’t jump from that to the conclusion that all the $ withdrawn from European banks by central banks were placed in safer institutions in the emerging world. Some say ‘private” gulf banks had big loan to deposit ratios and large funding needs and no doubt too much leverage and a real estate heavy portfolio. They just could draw on state support — new capital and also large dollar deposits to offset the loss of private funding.

  • Posted by xyz

    “It was the fact that had AIG fallen, then European banks would have been totally insolvent…. ”

    Said like a true Wall Streeter!

    Sure there are some European banks which are insolvent now – but this has nothing to do with AIG. AIG said (report in Bloomberg today) that European banks *as a whole* would have needed to raise 10 B Usd in capital if it had gone under, hardly a major amount for the sector as a whole and surely not leading to a single insolvency. On the other hand, I think it’s fair to say that at least one major American investment bank would have lost more than twice 10 B Usd if AIG had gone under and would have become insolvent.

  • Posted by lia

    http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt0903f.pdf

    There is an ambivalent confusion between liquidity pricing and risk pricing.
    Untill central banks and markets can be more precise.The former through a neutral money supply and the later through true risks assessment I see no end to the confusion between doubts and the doubtful.

  • Posted by lia
  • Posted by Twofish

    xyz: AIG said (report in Bloomberg today) that European banks *as a whole* would have needed to raise 10 B Usd in capital if it had gone under, hardly a major amount for the sector as a whole and surely not leading to a single insolvency.

    You mean this article…..

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087

    That $10 billion figure is what European banks would lose *today* if AIG folded right now. That’s a far, far smaller number than what the banks would have lost if AIG had folded in October, and that’s after several months of AIG trying to get out of as many positions as it could.

    So you end up losing $10 billion after pumping $130 billion into the mess. That gives you same idea of the scale of the problem in October.

    xyz: On the other hand, I think it’s fair to say that at least one major American investment bank would have lost more than twice 10 B Usd if AIG had gone under and would have become insolvent.

    Goldman-Sachs would have lost a large amount had AIG gone under because it had a business brokering deals between AIG and European banks.

  • Posted by Twofish

    bsetser: UK tic data would have inidicated that private borrowers in the uk were big borrowers from the US, and private financial institutions in the UK — not official actors — were big buyers of US ABS. It also would make clear exactly what the gulf is and isn’t buying, and thus make it clear what risks have been dispersed and what risks have not.

    I’m still not seeing how this information would have made much of a difference in preventing or reducing the financial crisis. The exposures that European banks had to the US mortgage market started to become painfully obvious at the start of 2007, when mortgage securities started going bad.

    I think that this discussion quite unfairly singles out SWF’s, because as far as anyone has been able to figure out, none of the SWF’s have anything that could blow up the world.

    The place where more transparency would have been useful is if regulators had a better idea what the megabanks, big insurers, and investment banks were doing, because it was they that blew up the world.

    What’s really scary is that no only did regulators have very little idea what these institutions were doing, it seems that in some places, senior management had very little idea what their banks were doing.

  • Posted by babar

    @2fish — your link isn’t working. do you mean this: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=&sid=av8IskE9DZ4A?

    from the article it sounds there is no compelling systemic reason to keep AIGFP around any more. the numbers just aren’t big enough. USG should get out of the business of portfolio insurance and move on.

  • Posted by xyz

    “That $10 billion figure is what European banks would lose *today* if AIG folded right now.”

    Sorry my mistake. But (from a WSJ article this week-end) the biggest amount paid by AIG since Sept to a European bank was 6 B – to DBK, still not enough to put it into insolvency. So I don’t think you’re right about any European bank becoming insolvent because of AIG going down. It’s a nice storyline for the Americans to believe – selfless Americans bailing out the world. But I think it’s more the converse we’ve seen – selfish Americans screwing up the world.

    “So you end up losing $10 billion after pumping $130 billion into the mess.”

    The mess includes lots of things, not just European banks.

  • Posted by confused

    i hope for a solution to G20. Global cooperation is key.

    Speaking of global cooperation, what in the world is Bank of America doing?

    Anyone check the protectionist approach by the bank? They refuse to hire foreign MBA’s. This is insanity. NY is going to lose the best talent if this approach continues.

    http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/09/bofa-withdraws-job-offers-to-foreign-mba-students/

    You’d think a bankrupt financial institution would try to attract talent, not neglect it…

  • Posted by Cedric Regula

    This is all nuts. That’s my input as a layman financial type. I spent an hour or so wondering maybe if I studied this a lot more and also get a few years industry experiance to get comfortable with the concepts I might feel ok about the system. But no. And extra transparency wouldn’t help. It would just be like watching a high speed train wreak in daylight instead of at night. I saw a PBS broadcast called something like “The Meltdown” and that’s when I found out Lehman was going to the overnight commercial paper markets to fund their 30:1 leverage ratio. That’s why an investment bank can go under in a few days. I never new that before. I thought banks either did it between themselves or with a central bank. Now we find out foriegn banks do it too, but also end up with currency risk??? Hedged off balance sheet of course with someone. Insured too no doubt.

    This is how that looks to me. I think I understand the concept of making loans, which the major reason for the existance of a banking system. So it’s like sitting under an apple tree, an apple falls on your head, and then you think you understand gravity. But say then you decide to travel to outer space and visit all the different size planets. You find out a lot more about gravity. Then you consult your technical library in transit to find out more about what you didn’t know. You find out about thuings like gravity wells and time-space is not “flat”. You realize there is now a 99.9999% chance you are dead.

    The answer is don’t go there.

  • Posted by Cedric Regula

    Here’s a paper giving the detail on what AIG was doing.

    Testimony of Mr Donald L Kohn, Vice Chairman of the Board of Governors of the US Federal Reserve System, before the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, US Senate, Washington DC, 5 March 2009.

    “AIG has also been a major participant in many derivatives markets through its Financial Products business unit (Financial Products). Financial Products is an unregulated entity that exploited a gap in the supervisory framework for insurance companies and was able to take on substantial risk using the credit rating that AIG received as a consequence of its strong regulated insurance subsidiaries. Financial Products became the counterparty on hundreds of over-the-counter derivatives to a broad range of customers, including many major national and international financial institutions, U.S. pension plans, stable value funds, and municipalities. Financial Products also provided credit protection through credit default swaps it has written on billions of dollars of multi-sector collateralized debt obligations (CDOs). Financial Products did not adequately protect itself against the effects of a declining economy or the loss of the highest ratings from the credit rating agencies, and thereby was a source of weakness to AIG. While Financial Products has been winding down and exiting many of its trades, it continues to have a very large notional amount of derivatives contracts outstanding with numerous counterparties.”

    http://www.bis.org/review/r090309e.pdf

  • Posted by Cedric Regula

    The other thing that worries me is that this is the first time in recorded history that I have heard so many people say that potash is really cool and it is a great thing to own. I’ve got to stop tuning to in CNBC.

    I’m becoming fearful that soon we will find out there was a potash bubble, it went bust and took down both Goldman Saks, J.P. Morgan and GEICO, and consequently the USG has to step in with $2 trillion to pick up the pieces. Otherwise farms will become dust bowls and Americans will no longer be able to eat food.

    But maybe I’m just paranoid.

  • Posted by Twofish

    xyz: Sorry my mistake. But (from a WSJ article this week-end) the biggest amount paid by AIG since Sept to a European bank was 6 B – to DBK, still not enough to put it into insolvency.

    Yes it does. If someone owes you US$100 billion, and they don’t have the cash to pay you 25 cents, then you are in deep, deep trouble.

    The fact that the amounts that AIG paid out were relatively small tells you how desperate the situation was. If we got into a situation were AIG didn’t have cash to pay $6 billion in claims, then the hundreds of billions of contracts that AIG had were worthless, at which point, things whose value is based on those contracts being worth something are also worthless.

    xyz: So I don’t think you’re right about any European bank becoming insolvent because of AIG going down. It’s a nice storyline for the Americans to believe – selfless Americans bailing out the world.

    There is or was absolutely nothing selfless or noble about it. Everyone was in the game to save their own skins, if you could have European banks go under without hurting the US, then bye, bye Europe. If we were talking about your typical third world country, they would have been thrown under the bus.

    The trouble is that it was obvious to everyone that once the European banks go under then that would have pulled the US banks under.

    xyz: But I think it’s more the converse we’ve seen – selfish Americans screwing up the world.

    Americans don’t seem to me to be more selfish or greedy than any other large group of people. Less cynical and a bit more short sighted, but no more selfish or greedy.

  • Posted by confused

    @ twofish

    any opinion on decision of BofA not to hire foreigners with MBA’s from yale, harvard, etc?

    the word of this is brewing a storm in financial circles here in europe…

  • Posted by jonathan

    Brad, I don’t normally post more than one reply to a post but now that I’ve read the underlying payers I wanted to repeat my thanks for this sensible summary and for the links.

    It’s truly amazing how systems find the open space, kind of like trying to squeeze a gas or liquid in your hands. But this analysis does point to regulatory and technical solutions; with this firm evidence of the catastrophic potential of information opacity, we can work on ways to illuminate the material. For example, even if Britain did not change its laws, we would now sensible assume that this would become a sinkhole of risk and would develop data on what goes in and what goes out (technical solutions) and would regulate by proxy how our institutions expose themselves to such sinkhole risks (regulatory possibilities). This would not necessarily insulate us from the next extreme mutant failure that might escape our screens but it might.

  • Posted by Blissex

    «For example, even if Britain did not change its laws, we would now sensible assume that this would become a sinkhole of risk and would develop data on what goes in and what goes out (technical solutions) and would regulate by proxy how our institutions expose themselves to such sinkhole risks (regulatory possibilities).»

    But this assumes that the goal is indeed to insulate from a sinkhole of risk, not to compete vigorously by becoming a deeper sinkhole of bigger risks, which has been Republican (and in part Democratic) strategy since Gingrich’s “Contract [on] America” of 1994. Gingrich at least is very honest about his belief in the irrepressibility of the Usian character:

    http://classwebs.SPEA.Indiana.edu/bakerr/v600/a_new_look_at_environmental_poli.htm
    «If you have a society where almost every middle class person routinely fudges the law, that’s telling us something. We have laws that matter-murder, rape, and we have laws that don’t matter. [ ... ] The first thing that every good American says each morning is “What’s the angle?” “How can I get around it?” “What does my lawyer think?” “There must be a loophole!” Then he proceeds to work the angle, and the bureaucracy spends its time chasing that and writing new regs to stop him. America is the most incentive-driven society on the planet.»

    That’s his opinion on «It’s truly amazing how systems find the open space, kind of like trying to squeeze a gas or liquid in your hands.» :-) .

    I’d guess that his policy prescription then his to let “good American”s on Wall Street bustout as much as they want, followed by the Plunge Protection Team reloading the till with free Greenspan Puts and Bernanke Swaps, and off to another round.

  • Posted by Twofish

    confused: any opinion on decision of BofA not to hire foreigners with MBA’s from yale, harvard, etc? the word of this is brewing a storm in financial circles here in europe…

    BofA didn’t have much choice in the matter since as a condition of TARP, they were limited as to the number of H-1B visas they could issue. I expect that similar things are going to happen at other banks.

  • Posted by DJC.

    Clinton’s neoliberal Globalization

    Globalization had been engineered by the Clinton economic team. Over the last three decades, globalizatin has created recurring trade imbalances between the US and China for trade to become a major point of conflict. Simultaneously, the US has become addicted to low cost imports from low-waged China to sustain low-inflation growth fueled by low-interest debt funded by the Chinese trade surplus dollars. The irony was that dollar hegemony as worked out by Robert Rubin under Clinton is based on using a trade deficit to finance a capital account surplus denominated in dollars. Rubin, a legendary Wall Street bond trader, figured out that the US can consume more than she produces at the expense of the exporting countries as long as US trade deficit is denominated in dollars that the exporting countries cannot spend at home without monetary penalties and must reinvest in US debts.

    An accommodating Federal Reserve under Alan Greenspan provided an ever increasing money supply to facilitate serial debt bubbles to keep US consumers spending even with declining real production. Countries exporting to the US had to invest their trade surplus dollars in US sovereign debt to finance the US trade deficit and the expansion of the US economic bubble by providing low cost imports to US consumers and at the same time provide to US consumers low-interest-rate loans collateralized by wealth effects created by serial debt bubbles. The Fed was in fact feeding a global bubble with fiat dollars.

    http://henryckliu.com/page183.html

  • Posted by ReformerRay

    Even if all the regulators had all the information about all these actions, they could not have stopped the system.

    As noted in the testimony of Mr. Kohn above, the London office of AIG could write all these credit default insurance because the full faith and credit of AIG backed up the insurance.

    The only way to prevent what happened would have been to prevent AIG from doing what it wanted to do. Nobody had a legal right to prevent AIG from taking on more credit default insurance than it had assets to cover.

  • Posted by bsetser

    Jonathan — I never mind comments that suggest that the reader has looked at the underlying paper (or papers)!

  • Posted by Indian Investor

    @confused: The US will bail out, or keep the system running in some form or other,e.g. by nationalizing the banks. China, Germany,Russia,Iran, Venezuela, etc will be the countries leading the global shift away from USD as the main reserve currency. They’ll continue to peg for some time, and shift away from USD; then as their local economies grow further they can afford to make a break – this can take around 5 years.
    Everything depends on what the US does meanwhile. If they reduce their dependency on imported oil, improve the working people’s skills, etc – they can withstand a situation where imports are no longer available on the cheap.
    If not, in around 5 years, the US will go for a sovereign default.
    People may even be making 8 figures using their blackberries in 5 years. The issue is what those 8 figures will be worth in real terms. If cheap imports disappear – the 8 figures will be valuing only domestic output.

  • Posted by gillies

    cedric regula : “So it’s like sitting under an apple tree, an apple falls on your head, and then you think you understand gravity. ”

    much more interesting are the patterns of life : how the apple gets up the tree in the first place.

    economic entities behave like the populations of organisms in an ecosystem. mechanical analogies always lead economists in to trouble. mechanical predictions only count straight lines of white swans.

    nevertheless – i suspect that if all international finance were to be conducted in a transparent manner – switzerland would apply to join the eurozone, the cayman islands would go heavily into tourism, the pentagon budget would shed billions, afghanistan would have to apply to the i m f for financial methodone, there would be quiet lay-offs in the c i a – and brad setser would be replaced by a small computer.

  • Posted by Indian Investor

    The BIS paper on the dollar funding shortage doesn’t clearly explain how the crisis was transmitted from the United States to Europe.It’s easier to begin with understanding as to how the American problem was transmitted to different emerging markets. For several years emerging markets around the world had high interest rate regimes and had good growth due to secular strucutural changes in their domestic economies. Banks headquartered in New York,London made out loans denominated in USD to say, banks headquartered in BRIC countries. Rolling over the shorter term lower interest rate USD loans was the source of funding for a number of banks in the BRIC countries, who were able to profit from the interest rate spread across the currencies. Secondly a number of foreign institutional investors held equities in these markets, sometimes more than 20% of the total local market cap. These investments were made by using the integration of i-banking and commercial banking; and used the same source of funding – the New York/London interbank/FX Swap/Central bank dollar funding sources.
    Once the credit crisis broke loose in the US, the disruptions led to a vary large correction in these exchanges, and a local liquidity crisis due to inability to roll over the USD loans.
    The BIS paper classifies banks by their headquarters in different European countries. It totals up the “dollar denominated claims” of those banks, and totals up their “local currency assets”. Then it shows that the excess of the dollar denominated claims over the local currency assets was funded through the above three sources of USD funding.
    There are two important aspects here. A “dollar denominated claim” might perhaps be held in any geography, and not only in the US. This is because banks might lend to say I-Banks that might then go and invest in EUR denominated equities. Or a bank HQ’ed in Germany might make out a dollar-denominated loan to a bank HQ’ed in Eastern Europe; and the Eastern European bank might then lend to the local emerging market in its own currency. And so on.
    This requires a lot of further analysis and thinking. To be continued…

  • Posted by Blissex

    «wealth effects created by serial debt bubbles. The Fed was in fact feeding a global bubble with fiat dollars»

    My current ideas on the root of the serial bubbles include also the Japan carry trade; the madness really accelerated in early 1995 and Greenspan started his ZIRP period several years later.

    My current list of the effective causes is:

    * Japan ZIRP and yen carry trade.
    * USA largely abolish most reserve/capital requirements.
    * USA forbid regulation of derivatives.
    * USA ZIRP in 2001.

    The USA actions are probably direct consequences of the Gingrich led Republican landslide of 1994…

    Then there are secondary effects that have been enabled by the above:

    * Arabia and Japan decide to fund Gulf War 2 via purchases of USA treasuries.
    * China and Japan decide to subsidize USA offshoring via purchases of USA treasuries.

  • Posted by Indian Investor

    Consider this confusing sentence from the Baba/Ramaswamy paper:
    “US banks’ need for European currencies is much smaller because US banks have leveraged their domestic operations with foreign assets much less.”
    When you’re telling lies with statistics, it requires the use of complicated terminologies with clever twists in them as well. Such as, for instance, Brad Setser’s phrase “financing the US current account deficit”.
    There is, in fact, no such thing as a European bank “leveraging domestic operations with foreign assets”. The more you think about this, the more confused you will be.
    The financial laws of gravity are simple. A global bank will source funds where interest rates and low; and lend where interest rates are high. given that both short term and long term rates were much lower in the US, European banks borrowed in dollars and lent in local currencies.
    “Interbank market” is a euphemism for a bank HQ’ed, say, in Germany, borrowing USD from a local US bank. When this type of source is disrupted, the dollar funding can’t go on any more.
    Secondly, the existing USD loans weren’t rolled over.Which is why there had to inter-central bank currency swaps.
    Apart from the US and the UK I haven’t seen many reports of retail mortgage borrowers in any geography defaulting in large numbers. Of course, a liquidity can transform into a solvency crisis rapidly.
    But the BIS papers are a clever attempt to confuse readers on the topic of “European banks’ need for dollar funding”. That ‘need’ developed as a result of lower US rates; and persisted due to non rollover of existing dollar debt.

  • Posted by Blissex

    «given that both short term and long term rates were much lower in the US, European banks borrowed in dollars and lent in local currencies.»

    In part, but tragically they also acted as intermediaries and borrowed in YEN (at 0%) to lend in whatever other currency. A lot of european banks right now are in trouble because they did even worse: they borrowed in YEN and lent those YEN to people whose income was in puny east european currencies and economies. That is probably a much bigger problem than european banks borrowing dollars.

    A colossal amount of dollars were borrowed not by european banks, but by Arabia, China, Japan, who then lent them back to the USA, who used them to fund tax cuts, wars, and now bailouts.

  • Posted by DOR

    DJC: Globalization had been engineered by the Clinton economic team.
    Me: Globalization was at its peak pre-WWI. I think you mean President Clinton’s GRANDFATHER.

    DJC: Over the last three decades, globalization has created recurring trade imbalances between the US and China for trade to become a major point of conflict.
    ME: First, Mr Clinton wasn’t president three decades ago. Second, three decades ago the US ran a trade SURPLUS with China. It didn’t begin to run a trade deficit until China replaced Japan as the key source of East Asian-made goods.

    DJC: Simultaneously, the US has become addicted to low cost imports from low-waged China to sustain low-inflation growth fueled by low-interest debt funded by the Chinese trade surplus dollars.
    ME: Simultaneously, US consumers have had the great benefit of lower-cost products, which has been particularly important to lower-income families.

    DJC: The irony . . . yada, yada, yada
    ME: Check history. The dollar became the reserve currency in the immediate post-WWII era.

  • Posted by jimspassion

    Twofish: You can monitor international flows all you want, but it wouldn’t have made a difference once the mortgage bubble blew up in the United States, and if people were willing to ignore the obvious signs of a credit bubble in the United States, then I don’t see how more statistics would have helped things.

    I agree until you take your clothes off and stand in front of the mirror you cannot understand what the effects are on your body from the misconceptions you once had, and the decisions you made – to excessively leverage the fact that your organs metabolize fats, sugars etc doesn’t give one an excuse for excess consumption – there had been plenty of articles alerting participants of a possible asset bust because affordability was being tested – but participants scoffed at the idea and went on to presenting models that it could be sustained – remember the rule of the game is that you cannot take a seat until the music stops – billions of dollars were missed in profits because participants stopped to early anticipating that the party was over only to see it go on before their very eyes with no end in sight – the greatest drivers are the ones that go deeper into the corner before braking and changing gears – speculation always will claim victims unfortunately innocent victims lose they life savings because of the reckless few.
    Twofish: I’m still not seeing how this information would have made much of a difference in preventing or reducing the financial crisis. The exposures that European banks had to the US mortgage market started to become painfully obvious at the start of 2007, when mortgage securities started going bad.
    2006 is when the first cracks started to appear – I don’t have the article at hand but from memory one of the auctions of this toxic stuff was a failure only to resume its normal routine the following auction – it was reported then that some of the big buyers were starting to get nose bleeds

  • Posted by Twofish

    ReformerRay: The only way to prevent what happened would have been to prevent AIG from doing what it wanted to do. Nobody had a legal right to prevent AIG from taking on more credit default insurance than it had assets to cover.

    This isn’t quite true. Lot’s of people had the authority to stop AIG, there was just not the right combination of information and political will. For example, most state insurance commissioners had the legal authority to pull AIG’s license to write insurance in their states if they thought that AIG was insolvent. SEC could have issued sanctions against AIG if they thought that the reports were inaccurate.

    That’s just US regulators. I’m sure that someone in Europe could have done some things.

    In fact, part of the problem was that AIG had too many regulators each assuming that someone else was watching the store.

  • Posted by Cedric Regula

    gillies responds:

    “cedric regula : “So it’s like sitting under an apple tree, an apple falls on your head, and then you think you understand gravity. ”

    much more interesting are the patterns of life : how the apple gets up the tree in the first place.”

    me: By now it’s obvious that it is either anti-gravity, or has something to do with potash. But the thing that always amazes me is how banks always manage to crash into Uranus.

    Also, Brad will never be replaced by a small computer. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. I want a financial FDA approving all financial “products” that can be sold worldwide and who is allowed to sell them. It would be a far shorter list than what we deal with from drug companies.

    I have another observation on the conversation here about interest rates and foreign lending. Greenspan went thru a phase in 1994 where he rapidly raised interest rates because he was spooked about an uptick in inflation. That is how US monetary policy is done. The dollar went up in foreign exchange. This caused some things to happen like the Mexican currency crisis, and Orange Country derivative investments to become no good. It probably also laid the groundwork for the Asian currency crisis. Since then he decided you can lower interest rates quickly to contain contagion (ie post Asian Crisis), but you have to raise them slowly (late ’90s stock market bubble), but lower them quickly (2001-2002 recession), but raise them slowly (housing bubble), but….now we are here.

  • Posted by Cedric Regula

    2fish:

    Kohn said this:

    “Financial Products is an unregulated entity that exploited a gap in the supervisory framework for insurance companies and was able to take on substantial risk using the credit rating that AIG received as a consequence of its strong regulated insurance subsidiaries.”

    Before we heard about AIG, it was also reported that IBs sold CDS, and they called them “swaps” instead of “insurance” so they didn’t need to worry about having any money to cover a claim.

  • Posted by locococo

    but now we have a ms bair at the fdic that s taking over the role of joe cassano …

    she ll now re-insure every past bank bondholder and future bondholder, trillions and trillions of them, all with “her” $ 18 bn, with ben there at the aig helm to help “manage the transition”.

  • Posted by Rien Huizer

    A very confusing post this time, at least to me. The US treasury as such may not have had detailed knowledge of European (and japanese?) USD funding practices, but very few people with international experience at the Fed (take for instance Tim Geithner’s predecessor, a former commercial banker with strong international exprience) would have been so ignorant. In addition the BIS has intimate knowledge of offshore markets, quizzes visiting bankers about many things to do with their offshore business, even though there are probably informal exchanges of information between shareholder central banks/home country supervisors and the BIS on this subject. The BIS has historically acted as a fiduciary and a “pilot” for central banks investing in the Eurodollar market. It would be unthinkable for the US authorities to be unaware of that fact and and not taking advantage of BIS knowledge available to the US authorities as the USD home country. So there is no point in building an argument of official US ignorance. Apart from the fact that such ignorance would have been extremely negligent.

    Another area of ignorance or negligence concerns US investment bank sales practices in (a o ) Europe, where packages of conduits, highly rated and high yielding securities and market funding were offered to banks looking for solvency-exempt income. Both US and local supervisors, as well as the US securities regulator did nothing to stop this hardly invisible activity.

    I suspect that regulators around the world did not expect that a liquidity crisis of this type could happen, or at least would not be prevented by aggressive liquidity support for banks (assuming those banks would be in compliance with the appropriate Basle regime). For more than 40 years non-US banks have been taking USD deposits and lending these for much longer periods. Some home country supervisors would impose formal or informal prudential liquidity strategies or even tests, but no one would have required banks to be robust enough to survive a sudden and systemic withdrawal of non-home country funds. On the other hand no reasonable public interest was served by allowing regulated (and now heavily supported) institutions to engage in irrational arbitrage strategies, and carry the resulting positions outside their official balance sheets.

    The result of all this (and structural shifts in some surplus countries’ investment preferences) is that now central banks buy US treasury paper, the US gvt/Fed complex arbitrages those funds through lending, support packages and swaps to the US and non Us commercial banking systems and thus keeps bank alive on the one hand, but causes unneccessary friction on the other hand. All of this despite two major changes: (1) bank capital positions have generally improved and government support clearly demonstrated (the argument that the fiscal burden may weaken the supporting governments is rubbish in the short term, it will take years before the inflationary impact and intergenerational consequences will affect the repayment probability of these state obligations) and (2) the people who did most of the joyriding have been removed from the system or are now employed in more wholesome work: work outs. But the banking system that he central banks do not want to lend to is probably a much better credit risk today than it was three years ago.

  • Posted by Indian Investor

    The USd slide is beginning very slowly. Soon it will be a reverse tsunami. The USd will fall at least 20% pretty soon. Hang on for the US bank resolution, then see what happens to the dollar.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-dollar-down-in-apf-14591136.html

  • Posted by beezer

    The AIG bailout is at $180 billion and counting. The notional value of CDS is north of $50 trillion worldwide.

    Up Uranus.

  • Posted by me

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