Simon Johnson poses the core question facing the United States and China well:
If [China] doubles [its] holdings of US dollar assets over the next couple of years (let’s say, going towards $4trn), effectively financing our budget and current account deficit, will we all end up safer or more vulnerable?
China currently has a bit over $1.5 trillion in dollar assets, as not all of its $2 trillion in reserves (and more like $2.3 trillion to $2.4 trillion in government assets abroad) are in dollars. About ½ of the total is result of China’s purchases in just two years, 2007 and 2008. China’s trade surplus isn’t shrinking, at least not in dollar terms. Lex’s argument that China’s surplus is waning can be challenged.* And even if China’s trade surplus stabilizes in dollar terms and shrinks relative to China’s GDP, China is on track to double its foreign assets – and its US holdings – over the next four years. Think a $350-400 billion annual increase in China’s dollar assets, and a $500b plus increase in China’s foreign assets.**
That prospect should scare China’s leaders. China’s population thinks China has already invested too much in low-yielding dollar assets. Doubling down only makes the problem bigger. Bridgewater’s Ray Dalio noted in February:
But they [China] own too much in the way of dollar-denominated assets to get out, and it isn’t clear exactly where they would go if they did get out. But they don’t have to buy more. They are not going to continue to want to double down.
Nor should the US want China to double down. The past few months have made it clear that China’s dollar problem can quickly become America’s problem, as China’s doubts about the safety of its US portfolio reverberate through various US markets.
To be clear, the basic risk China is running hasn’t changed all that much recently. China’s government fundamentally is overpaying for dollars (and euros) to hold the RMB down to help China’s exporters. That policy always has carried with it a high risk of future financial losses.
The current crisis hasn’t changed that basic reality.
Sure, the US fiscal deficit is up, something China’s state media now likes to highlight.*** And the Fed has cut policy rates in the midst of a severe downturn. But that is only half the picture. Household savings are up. Household borrowing is down. The private sector’s financial deficit is way down. The trade deficit is down too. Foreign inflows finance a trade deficit not the fiscal deficit and, in my book, financing a 6% of GDP trade deficit is more risky than financing a 3% of GDP trade deficit.
What has changed is China’s own perception of the risks. China’s population wasn’t focused on the cost of holding more dollar and euro reserves than China needs back in 2005 or 2006. Now it is.
And, or course, the over time the size of China’s portfolio grew, increasing the scale of China’s exposure. That is the nature of financing an ongoing deficit. The longer the current relationship continues, the more dollars (and euros) China will hold, and thus the greater the underlying risk.
Simon Johnson focused on Geithner’s non-confrontational tone in Beijing. But the basic message in Geithner’s Beijing speech was clear: the goal of both US and Chinese policy should be to move away from the current unbalanced relationship.
Our common challenge is to recognize that a more balanced and sustainable global recovery will require changes in the composition of growth in our two economies. Because of this, our policies have to be directed at very different outcomes.
In the United States, saving rates will have to increase, and the purchases of U.S. consumers cannot be as dominant a driver of growth as they have been in the past. In China …. growth that is sustainable growth will require a very substantial shift from external to domestic demand, from an investment and export intensive driven growth, to growth led by consumption. Strengthening domestic demand will also strengthen China’s ability to weather fluctuations in global supply and demand.
If we are successful on these respective paths, public and private saving in the United States will increase as recovery strengthens, and as this happens, our current account deficit will come down. And in China, domestic demand will rise at a faster rate than overall GDP, led by a gradual shift to higher rates of consumption. Globally, recovery will have come more from a shift by high saving economies to stronger domestic demand and less from the American consumer.
Seems like a vote for change, not more of the same.
But what leverage does the US really have to change the basis of the relationship when it wants China to buy its bonds in the near term?
That question misses two key points. First, the trade deficit is down, so the US actually needs less financing from the rest of the world right now than it did in the past. It isn’t clear to me that the US relies more on China now than it did back in 2007 and early 2008, when China’s reserves were growing faster and the US external deficit was larger. Second, China’s own concerns about its dollar risk could generate a larger constituency for change inside China.
Until now, China’s policy has been dominated by concerns about the impact of any change in China’s exchange rate on China’s exports. Yet it is hard to see how China can realistically scale back even the pace of increase in its dollar exposure so long as it is running a large trade surplus and pegging to the dollar.
Chinese policy makers have been searching for a way to avoid adding to their dollar exposure without changing their dollar peg. Here though, I suspect that my colleague (boss, actually) Sebastian Mallaby is right: China’s efforts won’t get China very far so long as China’s capital account is closed and China pegs to the dollar. As China comes to the same realization, the pressure on it to adjust its policies will grow.
Of course, a world where China provides the US will less financing implies adjustment in the US as well. A China that imports fewer bonds will tend to buy more imported goods – which will help some parts of the US economy. But it won’t help sectors with large borrowing needs. Including the US government.
The troubles the dollar has faced recently suggest that the market wants the US to continue to adjust. It now seems as though there isn’t lots of demand for US asset at current interest rates in absence of an acute crisis. The external financing that would be needed for US demand to spur a global recovery may not be there. Market pressures then could spur a more balanced global recovery. A weaker dollar will help bring about a rebound in US exports just as stronger currencies abroad will push other countries to take steps to stimulate their own economies.
Change isn’t without its risks. One of the key factor pushing China to adjust – its concerns about the safety of its US portfolio (or, in my view, its China’s belated recognition that holding its exchange rate down has costs as well as benefits, as it requires continuously overpaying for dollar and euro denominated bonds) – also makes the market nervous. And a nervous bond market tends to make policy makers a bit nervous.
On the other hand, if China (and the US) double down, the underlying problem would in some sense only get worse. The basic issues won’t change. But the stakes will be even higher.
Over the past couple of days I discussed the Sino-American financial relationship with CNBC Europe, NPR’s All Things Considered and public radio’s On Point. I tried to argue that neither the US nor China should seek to maintain a world where China saves and lends and the US (households as well as the government) borrows and spends. The goal should be the creation of a more balanced relationship – one where the US doesn’t require so much Chinese financing and China doesn’t need so much US demand – not a return to the old unbalanced relationship.
The sources of pressure for change are increasingly obvious. Even in China. That’s good. But transitions aren’t easy. Deficits – even shrinking deficits – have to be financed. And financing an orderly (think gradual) adjustment poses particular challenges.**** For everyone.
* China’s trade surplus in the 12ms through April reached $315b, v $255b in the 12ms to April 2008. The surplus in the last three months of data was $37b – v $39b at this time last year. That is encouraging – not growing isn’t the same as shrinking. Especially when China is stockpiling commodities, and thus somewhat artificially increasing imports and reducing its surplus. Let’s see what May tells us – if China really is going to lead the world out of the current slump, its surplus should shrink.
** I am assuming that China’s reserves resumed their upward March in the second quarter, as renewed confidence in China ended hot money outflows. Generally speaking, China amount of foreign exchange China has to buy to manage its exchange rate rises when the dollar is depreciating.
*** China Daily, via Charles Wallace of the Big Money: “The government and experts have expressed concern that Washington’s mushrooming deficit, generated by massive government borrowing to fuel its economic recovery plan… will undermine both the dollar and US bonds.” Funnily enough, I never heard China express comparable concern about the United States ballooning trade deficit from 2003 to 2006, even though that was a more direct threat to the value of the dollar. Call me cynical.
*** During an orderly adjustment, China’s dollar holdings – and thus its exposure to the US – would continue to rise. But the pace of increase would slow, until a new equilibrium was established, one that didn’t require ongoing Chinese purchases. The problem is that China’s exposure needs to rise even as China’s surplus with the US shrinks. Basically, China needs to bear the financial costs of supporting the dollar without getting the trade boost it got before. This shouldn’t be a surprise. I – and others – have long noted that the same folks who financed the expansion of the US trade deficit would likely need to finance its orderly contraction. But it isn’t clear that Chinese policy makers really ever thought out the end-game (i.e. their exit strategy from the dollar trap), despite their reputation for thinking about the long-term.
if china move away from export model, their trade surplus, well it is gonna go down whether they like or not as USA people spend less. china will have to shift focus to domestic/asia region trade. all mean, no more china pushing the long date rate down -> long date rate like 10/30 years will all go up gradually. not just china, probably Japan and Russia will be doing it too, they are all biggest USA debt holders. rates only have one way to go, UP UP UP.
As I said in your blog in October 2007, China will be fine to accumulate $5T of reserves and lose $2T of it value.
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From that post:
The question, why China has “financed the US unconditionally”?
I think the Chinese leadership sees current path as a smooth drive to their goal of building a strong and rich country. At the end of 2007, GDP of China will be around $3T at exchange rate. The GDP of the US will be about $13T. Imagine current trend continues a decade. Lets assume the following for the sake of argument.
1) RMB vs. Dollar appreciates 4-5% each year
2) The nominal GDP growth (real GDP + inflation) difference between China and the US is bigger than 7% each year.
3) China accumulated $5T of reserves.
Then, let’s do some math. Currently, the GDP ratio is about 1:4 between China and the US. The assumption 2) will narrow the ratio to 1:2. Assumption 1) further narrows the gap to 1 : 1.3. So at 2020 (13 years later), the 2 countries will have equal GDP at exchange rate.
For the loss of the reserve value, due to assumption 1) and 2), China will sacrifice roughly $2T in the process.
I would guess the Chinese leadership think, if they can buy the 10 year’s development, $2T (10%-15% of then GDP per year depends on inflation) is a reasonable price. I personally agree that the trade is desirable for China. In addition, the above discussion assumes GDP at exchange rate describes the strength of a economy, which is questionable in this case. When we think about the real underlying economy, the Chinese GDP growth is more valuable. Huge mount of wealth will be generated (which is undervalued by the exchange rate) instead of being consumed. The 10 years worth of infrastructure build-up, environment repair and social reforms will change the country and the world dramatically. So it is even more tempting to keep the current path.
I have tried to outline the rationale for the Chinese to offer this “unconditional finance”. The money is spent to buy time. The next question is, should the US take this “unconditional finance”? That will decide whether or not the current trend can continue. And that is a US policy choice.
http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2007/10/23/emerging-economies-accomplish-something-beyond-the-reach-of-the-g/
In my last post, it should be:
“due to assumption 1) and 3), China will sacrifice roughly $2T in the process.”
After the kowtow, didn’t Mr. G go to Peking to persuade those fellows to take treasuries denominated in renminbi?
Above post says: “I have tried to outline the rationale for the Chinese to offer this “unconditional finance”. The money is spent to buy time. The next question is, should the US take this “unconditional finance”? That will decide whether or not the current trend can continue. And that is a US policy choice”.
Yes, accurate, correct. China has made its policy choice, for the reasons outlined above. Bester is whistling in the dark to hope that China will depart from a successful relationship. The only remaining question is whether the U.S. will agree to continue the unbalanced trade?
Not all of the increase in China’s currency reserves is caused by its trade surplus. In the past few years, capital flows (FDI and portfolio investments) have added substantially to the dollars that China has ended up holding. Even if the trade surplus were to stay the same (and that is not certain), the drop off of FDI and, to a lesser extent, portfolio investment would result in slower growth in China’s currency reserve. In addition, Chinese state-owned enterprise now have greater ability to make direct investments outside of China, enabling more of the dollars to be recycled into productive investments.
Great note once again. China will need more internal consumption and set up more trade relationships. The USA will simply have to cut back, and live within our means. A flip of the coins if you will.
any graphs showing Chinese consumer borrowing year over year? I’m curious as state of Chinese consumer.
Yesterday i visited several first generation Chinese families down near Canal (doing research for a startup) and received input. It’s very apparent to me that CHINESE citizens DONT SPEND. Like one individual said to me, my parents have made very successful business in China, but my father always wears same shirt, same shoes, and he SAVES almost everything. The girl who was 28, living in the United States said that it was the way she was brought up and despite her living in the USA she is also the same.
The Chinese people, some having millions simply do not spend. It’s a culture, it’s way of life, it’s a way of thought, and it’s perhaps a view of there religion. They live Very simple lives.
This will take decades to change, if ever. But it would be interesting setting up a group, perhaps at the ASIA society here in NY studying Chinese consumer behavior. Western corporations should figure out the thought process so they have better means to target the asian consumer. I have plenty of ideas, and well the more I see the large amount of Chinese savings the more I want to target this market.
chinese culture didn’t change fundamentally between 2002 and 2008. Chinese household savings rates didn’t rise. China’s national savings rate soared. That is the puzzle that needs to be explained.
Thank you “Follow the money”. The Chinese should not apologize for thrift and savings.
1. Saving money for a future rainy day is a Virtue.
2. Buying consumer products on credit is irresponsible.
It is time that Western Neo-liberal Economists confusing “savings and debt” are re-educated on basic economic fundamentals.
“But it isn’t clear that Chinese policy makers really ever thought out the end-game (i.e. their exit strategy from the dollar trap), despite their reputation for thinking about the long-term.”
It’s a well-deserved reputation. Comparatively. Here’s the answer:
“The goal should be the creation of a more balanced relationship – one where the US doesn’t require so much Chinese financing and China doesn’t need so much US demand – not a return to the old unbalanced relationship.”
It’s simply a matter of working out the details. China understands that it’s connected to us. And, just as we try and influence them through our statements ( On human rights, for example ), they try and influence us in the same way.I suppose they take the idea of a partnership more seriously.
Whatever the press said, Geithner as the one person calling for a total guarantee. China surely knows this. That’s what they wanted and expected. As you say:
“The sources of pressure for change are increasingly obvious. Even in China. That’s good. But transitions aren’t easy. Deficits – even shrinking deficits – have to be financed. And financing an orderly (think gradual) adjustment poses particular challenges.*** For everyone.”
I believe that the US and China know where they want to go, it’s really a matter of the actions and compromises necessary to get there. In other words, China has a plan, but we have a say in how that plan works out.
To me, what’s interesting is how they’re reacting to getting, more or less, what they want. I guess that they don’t trust democracy, while they’re pretty sure that they’re in control of their responses.
Brad Setser: chinese culture didn’t change fundamentally between 2002 and 2008. Chinese household savings rates didn’t rise. China’s national savings rate soared. That is the puzzle that needs to be explained.
DJC: Asian Savings rates have always averaged 15% or higher in Japan and China. In stark contrast to the typical US consumer shopoholic, Asian families have survived famines, wars, revolutions during the past several decades. My parents family survived during the 1940′s from Gold pieces saved.
In the past decade, the national savings rate soared because Chinese SOEs to get “lean and mean” in order to compete with US multinationals were forced to dump the “iron bowl” social protections that included medical coverage, retirement pensions for workers. Without the requirement to pay dividends to the state, profits and savings soared at Chinese SOEs.
FollowTheMoney responds: The Chinese people, some having millions simply do not spend. It’s a culture, it’s way of life, it’s a way of thought, and it’s perhaps a view of there religion. They live Very simple lives.
This is totally wrong.
It’s not that Chinese people don’t spend lots of money. It’s that people that are raised in poor backgrounds tend not to spend money. This is true with Chinese lived through the 1970′s and Americans that lived through the 1930′s. Younger Chinese tend to spend a lot more than their parents, and I know some Chinese that have financial problems from overspending.
Also Chinese savings rates are due also to the fact that you have a stable government and low inflation. Chinese in the 1930′s didn’t particular save large amounts of money, because anything they saved would have inflated away.
I find culture a generally bogus and meaningless explanation of things. It’s circular. Chinese behave in a way X because of their culture. What is Chinese culture, well it’s the way Chinese behave. Also cultural explanations don’t explain very rapid shifts. Why were Chinese peasants much more entreprenuerial in 1980 than in 1975 or why has the US savings rate suddenly spiked in the last few years.
FollowTheMoney: It’s very apparent to me that CHINESE citizens DONT SPEND.
There are 1.2 billion Chinese. The one’s that you met in Canal Street are a small fraction of all Chinese. The one generalization about Chinese is that you shouldn’t generalize about Chinese, and the fact that people make that particular generalization about Chinese (and curiously not about Mexicans) says more about American stereotypes than about Chinese people.
FollowTheMoney: Western corporations should figure out the thought process so they have better means to target the asian consumer.
The problem is that there is no Chinese consumer. There is no Asian consumer. In the US, there is enough of a mass market so that you can make one commercial and large a large audience. In China, you can’t do this as easily because the country is so diverse.
DJC @ 11:25 : Bravo!
The other thing is that Chinese consumer spending has exploded over the last two decades. It’s just that incomes have exploded even faster.
Also one important point about Chinese households in China is that most of them don’t pay rent or have a mortgage.
bsetser: chinese culture didn’t change fundamentally between 2002 and 2008. Chinese household savings rates didn’t rise. China’s national savings rate soared. That is the puzzle that needs to be explained.
And it’s not much of a puzzle. In the late-1990′s, China restructured its state-owned enterprises and banking system. What happened is that the SOE’s fired workers by the tens of millions, and those workers found jobs in the service economy. Once you produced the same amount of output with a lot fewer workers, profits soared. Because of the way Chinese companies work, management is incentived to hoard cash, so when Chinese companies started making massive amounts of money, the corporate savings rate soared.
One reason I’m optimistic about the US’s ability to get out of this mess is that if you look at the banks and the SOE’s in 1995, and they were totally messes. If China can fix its industrial economy, then fixing Citigroup, GM and AIG ain’t going to be that hard.
DJC: Asian Savings rates have always averaged 15% or higher in Japan and China. In stark contrast to the typical US consumer shopoholic.
And US savings rates were in the 8-10% range before the 1990′s. Also if you look at disposible income (i.e. subtract rent), then I think you’ll end up with comparable amounts. The big difference in savings rates IMHO is less a function of culture than of the 1990′s stock market boom.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/PSAVERT.txt
Also the lack of iron rice bowl did two things. First it increase corporate savings rates, but it also increased personal savings rates.
The other things is that most Chinese in China hate the fact that they have to save as much as they do for health and education. There’s a lot of public pressure for the Chinese government to spend more on social welfare.
@ Twofish. thanks for your input.
quick comment and that is based on the Chinese individuals i have interviewed it’s in the Chinese culture to “save more than spend”.
you are correct that it maybe because of economic hardship that brings about real savers.
If that’s the case, it brings interesting note to the topic of our consumption based culture here in the west.
i hate to say it Twofish, but you know maybe some of these imbalances could be adjusted if the we took the pain and greatly cut debt and consumption. I think our generation takes too many things fore-granted. You know big cars, big homes, big annual bonuses…This goes back to the structural readjustment i have discussed in the past.
I’m not in any way, shape or form wishing for a depression, however it may change the way we live, our value and our moral. I think it would actually encourage our society to look at the world in a different light and perhaps start to value ‘real things’ vs material culture we are so accustomed to.
Again, and unfortunately the only way to overcome this great excesses and imbalances will be a short, but severe depression. It’s not going to be easy, it’s not going to be fun, alot of people will lose there jobs. However, in the end we’re going to come out of this with a different perspective of the world and the way we live.
But the basic message in Geithner’s Beijing speech was clear: the goal of both US and Chinese policy should be to move away from the current unbalanced relationship.
What if these are just words or what if this goal is at best teritary to the US? As I see it, our goals right now are first, save the planet and second, redistribute wealth. A distant third is everything else. I believe that those two motivations can explain the actions of this administration, particularly those that are counter-intuitive when it comes to wealth creation and fiscal stability.
If these are indeed our national motivations, then Geithner’s words are nothing more than that and the only thing that will achieve a balance will be a crash.
Finally, the constituencies who do embody these motivations have a momentum of their own. Once they get going, as they have with the $800B stimulus bill, the monster omnibus spending bill and the giant budget plan already approved, economic theorists and talk all they want about balance and it will have the same effect as standing in front of a tsunami.
See also: mortgage rates, the rising of after the Fed bought $1.2T of bonds.
That should read “economic theorists can talk all they want”
Sorry about that.
I wonder if reports of China stockpiling a variety of commodities & basic materials suggest one method they’re using to reduce dollar exposure if only minimally. Commodities are a true reserve ‘currency’ after all. Perhaps much larger, more frantic expenditures are on the horizon as the US predicament is more fully realized. With respect to Secretary Geithner’s soothing tone, pick your analogy – slaughterhouse, used cars, etc. Keep ‘em calm until….Fed Chairman Bernanke’s testimony that deficits are bad (!) seemed choreographed to abet the Geithner ruse and will likely be met in Washington with the same level of bemusement as greeted Geithner’s remarks in Beijing.
@ TomofTheNorth
If China and perhaps asian region were smart they’d create a regional currency backed by a basket of commodities…just a suggestion. something like that and we could have new global reserve favored by foreign investors.
TomNorth -
I’ve wondered the same kind of thing. If I were in China’s shoes, looking forward, I’d say “crap, I’ve got too much cash, and a lot of problems (social, environmental, etc) that are only going to get worse.”
Hundreds of billions, or trillions of dollars can buy a lot of wind turbines/solar panels, clean up a lot of filthy rivers, reclaim damaged agricultural land, send students abroad to study at top universities, build high speed rail, etc. Or buy lots of commodities. But all of these kinds of things take some time to improve quality of life for the average folks – you want to start NOW, to see benefits in a decade.
On the flip side, having twice as much cash in a decade won’t really solve your intrinsic problems (which you’ve largely ignored to accumulate that cash) – because they’re not the kind of problems that can be quickly resolved by throwing money at them.
So it’s bizarre to me that China has been buying as many t-bills as it has over the last several years, unless the entire goal is to prop up the US-China relationship as it stands. Maybe that’s the case. But if I were China, I’d be spending (investing?) the trade surplus in some other way.
-Walt
‘monopoly’ is a game for four players.
it has a strong tendency to end with 75% of the players bankrupt and for the last player, the game is then also over because of inevitable systemic collapse.
three parts bankruptcy one part systemic collapse ?
the fact that we still play this game, tells us more than i (for one) really wish to know about the human race.
china could lend fixed term, fixed interest rate, to the united states if the chinese chose to negotiate that.
the chinese treasuries should neither be sold, nor more bought, pending this rescheduling of the subprime market. or the market should close on a friday night and reopen on monday morning under different arrangements.
when overweight communists get into bed with careless capitalists, a wedding contract or comprehensive pre-nup is essential.
and markets cannot function when over a certain percentage of the chips belong to one player.
if the market cannot function – all of these financial geniuses together need to work out a way for the chinese, or whoever have savings, to lend to the u s, or whoever are seeking credit, in some way that does not involve a game of chicken nor involve the egos of big nations which tend to be fragile in inverse ratio to their size.
if the policy makers are beaten by the complex questions, why not tackle the simple ones ?
The Chinese government will have to buy more Dollars. It is axiomatic, unless
1) China no longer runs a trade surplus
2) China opens up its capital account and floats its currency, allowing its private sector to invest internationally and absorb its C/A surplus
3) The US begins borrowing in Yuan (or is forced to borrow in Yuan or other currencies) to finance its trade deficits.
Certainly China could sell its Dollars for other currencies instead, but this supposes there are other non-US investors willing to exchange their currencies for China’s Dollars. Somebody overseas will be holding Dollars even if it isn’t the Chinese.
What helps China right now is that a lot of its commodity imports are based in Dollars. So even though it has a huge trade surplus with the US, its surplus of Dollars is not quite as huge. I expect to see China take more steps to match Dollar imports with exports and they may even encourage other countries to sell products to China in Dollars (the Dollars then become someone else’s problem).
a fundamentalist capitalist could say that geithner and the chinese met in a ?beijing ?shanghai hotel to agree to manipulate the bond market.
so who are we fooling ? it’s not a free market. a bilateral negotiated loan, or annually revised credit facility on agreed terms, would put everyone out of their misery.
maybe the great war of the currencies – which nobody wants of course, but everybody joins – will begin in some obscure sarajevo event ?
maybe latvia, or some such, will bring down the great powers of east and west ?
FollowTheMoney: quick comment and that is based on the Chinese individuals i have interviewed it’s in the Chinese culture to “save more than spend”.
But in doing that they are *defining* what they regard as Chinese culture, and a lot of them see what their kids do as being “un-Chinese.” On the other hand, you see the same thing with Americans. I know lots of people that *define* “traditional American values” as meaning thrift, hard work, saving money, and so forth.
FollowTheMoney: If that’s the case, it brings interesting note to the topic of our consumption based culture here in the west.
I don’t think that “Western culture” in general is more materialistic or consumer oriented than “Chinese culture” in general. People that grew up in poor childhood tend to save more, but that’s not a Chinese thing. American that grew up with poor childhoods tend to save. Chinese that grew up rich tend to spend.
FollowTheMoney: i hate to say it Twofish, but you know maybe some of these imbalances could be adjusted if the we took the pain and greatly cut debt and consumption.
I don’t think it will. It seems logical that the economy will be better if everyone cuts back, but historically its been proven to be disastrous. You end up with idle factories and unemployment.
FollowTheMoney: I’m not in any way, shape or form wishing for a depression, however it may change the way we live, our value and our moral.
If you think a depression is a good thing because it improves social values then say it. This “I’m not in favor of a depression, but I think it would be a good thing” doesn’t make much sense.
FollowTheMoney: Again, and unfortunately the only way to overcome this great excesses and imbalances will be a short, but severe depression.
Here is what I think is happening. I think you believe that a depression would be a good thing, but since you can’t come out and say it, to get a depression, you have to assert one is inevitable. This conveniently gets you out of your dilemma.
Personally, I think that a depression is too high a price to pay for getting rid of “greed”, “excess” and imbalance.
gillies, china could lend fixed term, fixed interest rate, to the united states if the chinese chose to negotiate that
Lending to someone who is reducing their ability to repay you is the same as simply handing them the money and walking away. In the end, they borrow your loan payment from you and then hand it back and brag about how they can still service their loans.
Japan has been at the export-led model of growth for, let’s say, 59 years (1950 to present). And they’re become very wealthy.
And yet they haven’t been able to wean themselves from this export-led economic model. (and so the less so China).
The export-led model of growth is the only system yet devised that will let a nation become wealthy in maybe 1 or 2 generations. It took far larger greater number of generations for Europe and US (where industrial civilization was first built) to become wealthy .
The problem is is that no one (including the first: Japan) has managed to make the transition from export-led as opposed to something that’s more self-sustaining in terms of a mix of domestic demand, capital formation, etc.
It’s a tough nut to crack. That’s never been cracked.
And so I don’t see the Chinese making any major change in their economic model anytime soon. The not-just domestic but international duress associated with a forced change would presumably be conditions considerably than even what we see at the moment.
Historically, Europe (much more so that the US) managed – perhaps painfully and violently – to extract itself from several high equilibrium traps. E Asia may have also done so historically but never with such spectacular results. But then in one instance (China) the Song dynasty was terminated by the Yuan – but with disastrous consequences- as inflicted by exogenous forces (the Mongols). Over the 1 century (brief) of the Yuan my, from memory, numbers are that the population of China dropped from 100 million to 50 million.
This may seem abstract but then what I’ve found over the years is that perhaps the most compelling argument for the theoretical is when the theoretical becomes more practical (think, for one, Newtonian dynamics) than current practice.
considerably _worse_ (of course)
@ Twofish
today’s global model is disfunctional, again this is not a garden variety recession, this is different. excesses and imbalances we have created are so vast, that we have to pay the price for those! over the next few years you will see the kind of readjustments that will be much needed. this will take time, there’s going to be more people laid off, i wish we could get through this in a year. this is different, there are structural imbalances. You will see the changes i’m talking about in consumer behavior years ahead.
In my view, Earnings are going to continue to decline, people are going to be sad when they look at the retail numbers in quarters ahead. These excesses and imbalances are going to take years to sort out. This is not a 1-2 year and we’re out of the hole.
At same time gov’t runs a risk of destroying the credit worthiness of the u.s. govt trying to reflate the credit bubble. Unfortunately this time it won’t work, because people have lost trust and consumer behavior will shift (in the u.s.) from spend spend spend to i need save save save.
In my opinion, this is the big one, this is very different than anything we will probably witness in our lifetime. The rockn 90′s and early 2000′s will be looked at as the roaring 20′s when our grandchldren read the history books.
menomnon responds: Japan has been at the export-led model of growth for, let’s say, 59 years (1950 to present). And they’re become very wealthy.
This is a popular but vastly incorrect view. Japan was already an developed industrial country by 1940. After all, they attacked Pearl Harbor and was able to fight the United States for about 2 years. Most of the growth of Japan took place in the late 19th century.
memomen: The export-led model of growth is the only system yet devised that will let a nation become wealthy in maybe 1 or 2 generations.
Not quite. The Soviet Union became industrialized and wealthy in 2 generations without exports. It blew up after those two generations, but the Soviet Union in 1990 was far more wealthy than China is now.
Also the Soviet model provides another warning. A lot of countries in the 1950′s, tried to copy the Soviet model with the same idea, that the Soviets were the only ones that could rapidly industrial quickly.
@twofish: yes of course. I may be Am but I studied Japanese language, history, culture, economy, etc in college (and also majored in computer science). Later I lived 6 yrs in Japan.
I was trying to be charitable in not pushing the 1950 date as far back as, say, 1868 and the Meiji Restoration.
FollowTheMoney: today’s global model is dysfunctional.
It’s no more dysfunctional than it was in 1980, and it is likely to be just as dysfunctional in 2030. Today’s solutions causes tomorrow’s problems.
FollowTheMoney: Again this is not a garden variety recession.
It’s start to turn into a garden variety recession. In any case, it’s not particularly bad by historical standards.
FollowTheMoney: Excesses and imbalances we have created are so vast, that we have to pay the price for those!
Numbers? The numbers I’m seeing aren’t that huge by relative standards.
FollowTheMoney: These excesses and imbalances are going to take years to sort out. This is not a 1-2 year and we’re out of the hole.
The hole is about $4 trillion dollars. That looks to me like a 1-2 year problem and not a ten year problem. A trillion dollars isn’t as much money as you would think.
FollowTheMoney: Unfortunately this time it won’t work, because people have lost trust and consumer behavior will shift (in the u.s.) from spend spend spend to i need save save save.
So take all that saved money and do something useful with it. When someone puts money in a bank, it doesn’t go into a vault. The bank loans it out and the money gets spent for something.
FollowTheMoney: In my opinion, this is the big one, this is very different than anything we will probably witness in our lifetime.
You are young. I have the advantage that I lived through the 1970′s and early 1980′s, and as of now, it doesn’t look like it’s going to be worse than what happened then. It *could* have been worse, but thanks to some very quick thinking, it wasn’t. I think the major crisis has passed and we are in the cleanup phase.
FollowTheMoney: The rockn 90’s and early 2000’s will be looked at as the roaring 20’s when our grandchldren read the history books.
I very much dislike deterministic views of history. What are grandchildren read in the history books is unknown since we haven’t written those pages yet.
In any case, one of the major differences is that we are crash + eight months and the banks haven’t failed in the way that they did in 1929-1932. The difference is that in 1930, if a bank failed, you lost all your money. You were wiped out. Today if a bank fails, they just tape a piece of paper to the door when they reopen on Monday.
John Jansen has this to say:
We are in a new age and that new era is governed by supply. There is no refuge from it. It just keeps coming and until there is some sign that the fiscal situation in the US is a road to rehabilitation, the treasury market will remain a cold lonely venue.
Geithner’s talk about balance is just whistling in a graveyard.
We just bought GM and will be asking it to build cars upon which it has not made money in recent memory. We’ll lose money on every car and make it up in volume?
All those losses will be covered by borrowing.
Next up: we give good health care to all in order to save money.
a bit of perspective is warranted. I frankly don’t understand why the entire focus is on the fiscal deficit not the external balance; the household balance has changed fundamentally. home investment is way down; household savings is way up. the trade deficit is down significantly. if the issue is supply, the “supply” of debt that the us needs to sell on the int. market is way down — even if the supply of treasuries is up.
somehow the swing in the private sector’s balance drops out of the discussion, and reduced supply of claims on households and firms that the us needs to sell the world. as does the improvement in the external balance.
It may not be the case that dollar risk exactly equals Treasury risk: find a high-yielding or fast-growing asset and a declining dollar may not be the disaster it is if your options are limited to low-yield Treasuries. It’s possible that China will take in another USD350bn+ in dollar assets each year but that suggests to me that SAFE will see a declining (and perhaps very small) share of the inflows.
Brad> I’ve searched images.google.com (a very good place to find charts and graphs directly – which then lead you to the accompanying text) but it seems very hard to find ‘Total Debt’ for given countries. And I would ideally like to find this a) for the OECD countries b) add China and the BRICs and c) continue to iterate as desired (e.g. S. America?).
Everyone seems to want to give you public debt which is only one and a generally lesser part of the whole iceberg.
I do remember seeing one Total Debt graph for the US – and it went back as far as the 30s and the Great Depression. One point was particularly striking. At the time of the Great Depression corporate debt was huge but household debt was quite small. This time it’s the other way round. So then, what are the implications?
Bsester
“the external balance; the household balance has changed fundamentally. home investment is way down; household savings is way up.”
@ twofish
i maybe young (26 years old), however the Green shoots crowd is over confident that consumer spending will hold. As Dr. Setser mentions savings are up, in that case Green Shoots are not likely to prosper…household paychecks(bonuses down, deflation in wages), household nest eggs, the home equity is down, and there 401K is sunken, most likely 3/3 of is failing for people…Alot more uncertainty amongst the common consumer than ever.
so much stimulus, this is an ARTIFICIAL improvement. Consumer behavior is set to readjust. The market has not factored this in. I truly feel bad for people investing at these levels…
Brad: To be clear, the basic risk China is running hasn’t changed all that much recently.
Me: Actually, it has changed tremendously.China’s earlier strategy was simple. Accumulate a lot of dollars, then use the dollar stockpile to buy imports for domestic consumption once it becomes clear that they can sustain a trade deficit for several years.But the Fed created new credit worth $2 trillion, out of a Treasury loan (supplementary financing) of $200 billion. Another $700 billion of bailout funding and now another $700 billion of fiscal stimulus. Plus, a 9% increase in the stock of currency in circulation. The massive dollar printing activities have made sure China can’t continue to rely on the US dollar as a reasonably secure store of value.
Of course, they’re still buying short term T-Bonds. The reasoning is that they need to keep the remaining exports to the US profitable, to avoid further factory closures.
If US consumer confidence comes back now, China will lose heavily.Higher and higher import orders from the US will make them more and more compelled to indulge in dollar pegging. But the bet is that Americans will save more and more. This means Chinese workers diversify away from exports to the US. Finally China will be ready to pull the rug from under the Dollar’s clay feet.
The controversy is around the time frame for the dollar decline. Stroupe says 2-3 years, Roubini is writing about a 10 year decline of the American Empire. Dmitry Orlov says either now, or he could be wrong by 5 years. But the US Dollar will collapse, for sure. And till that happens, Americans will continue to be jobless, or worried about becoming jobless.
Best of both worlds for china would be to continue financing US debt but just not in dollars. At some point there will be a push towards a global currency and you can be sure China, Russia, and India are in ongoing discussions about how to create one. Short term I really don’t see much change except that china will start to move into TIPS. The difference is that where I can see long term exit options for china and as china slowly becomes more affluent it will happen anyway, the exit strategy for the US is less obvious.
What interests me is that there is a lot of talk about the consequences of a rebalancing on China but little on the effects for the US. Brad mentions exports should pick up and imports should drop, but what happens to prices in the US if the dollar is no longer supported by Chinese buying. The risk is that you get price inflation in certain commodities like oil at the same time as wage stagnation and you would need a complete rebalancing of consumer expenditure as a result. Change is not something that is always popular with the electorate and you could see policy forced down some surprising routes as a result.
“somehow the swing in the private sector’s balance drops out of the discussion”
Sure that’s great. I’d agree it’s the sum of debt (gov + private) which matters, but look at what the sum is doing – it’s still high. And sure the U.S. trade deficit being down is good news, but I think it’s less good news than the numbers are showing (if oil gets more expensive, it’ll go right back up).
America’s Innovation Deficit, Capital misallocated into absurd Housing Bubble and really dumb Middle East Wars. Stupid Neo-liberal Economists and the Washington Consensus Elites have bankrupted the US Economy.
From Businessweek,
After the 2001 tech bust, trillions of dollars flowed into the U.S.—but most of it went into government bonds and housing rather than into innovative sectors of the economy. While subprime mortgages boomed, venture capital investments have more or less stagnated since 2001, with few tech startups going public. “The U.S. was awash in capital, much of it desperately seeking a good deal,” says Robert D. Atkinson, president of the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation, a nonpartisan Washington think tank. “If this had truly been an innovative period, then a vast array of cutting-edge innovations and their commercialization would have demanded hundreds of billions of dollars of capital.”
If the description of the last decade as an innovation shortfall turns out to be accurate, that could make a big difference in how we think about the U.S. economy. For one thing, it helps explain why the trade deficit skyrocketed. A high-wage country such as the U.S. either has to develop innovative products and services to compete with low-cost countries such as China or accept a lower standard of living. “The competitive advantage of the U.S. economy has to be leveraging our science capacity for economic growth,” says Pisano of Harvard. Fewer innovative products mean a weaker trade performance.
An innovation shortfall might also have weakened the country’s underlying productivity growth, which in turn influenced real wages and the ability of consumers to spend without borrowing.
http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/09_24/b4135000953288.htm
Brad,
Apart from a substantial change in the CNY/USD rate, which may not have the desired effect (US purchasers will extract lower costs from Chines manufacturers, SOEs will use their murky accounting to maintain market share, etc, non-hukou casuals will get a pay cut, etc All these things are a more likely result from a CNY realignment than substantially lower US imports from China). So apart from an FX solution, what other solutions are there. I guess that a deepening recession would help and a fast recovery would make it worse.
To me, all that would happen as a result of a CNY/USD move would be: higher Chin export receipts (in trade weighted terms) Possibly some loss of production to either the home countries of Korean and Japanese MNCs or sites (countries) that do not follow a PRC move, and, of course, a reduction in currency reserves (in CNY terms).
I guses the only thing that will reduce Chinese exports to the US would be (a) a deepening recession in the US with high unemployment and a big cut in consumer spending, even for essentials. Or (b) import/export controls of course, or a fundamental shift to “buy non-Chinese” on the part of all major retailers.Or (c) a sharp increase in exports to other markets.
It all looks pretty unlikely to me so, yes, we should assume further growth in Chinese reserves, some tinkering with the exchange rate and, hopefully, a rapid growth in Chinese industrial wages, combined with stagnating productivity. How? For instance, the US could issue a special class of Treasury paper (the only class available for sale to PRC residents and their agents) that would fund a large scale, very low interest, consumer finance program in China. Borrowers (selected by a nation wide lottery) should expect very low delinquency fees and a great deal of leniency in case of arrears. Repayment of these treasury securities should be (1) from this consumer finance scheme’s receipts and (2) from US net exports to China. This would give China an incentive to both raise domestic wages (so as to increase the debt service capacity of the lucky winners) and find ways to redirect exports away from the US or to increase imports from the US.
Economics is easy..
Brad, I have a question that you might help to clarify. There are some Buzz about the CNY become the world reserve currency. Dont you think that would be impossible unless China become (1) a really Democratric country and (2 and most important); China would have to have a current account desfcit instead of Surplus? This would be the only reason investors would hold CNY. Otherwise all holdings would be only for speculation, what doesnt make a currency a wealth reserve.
Brad, I frankly don’t understand why the entire focus is on the fiscal deficit not the external balance
Because insanity is remarkable and makes people talk.
While households and businesses will, over time, react rationally to external events, it’s apparent from California and the Obama Administration that this particular government will not. Imagine the annual report from a company that behaved as the Obama Administration has. The lead reports would be how they are running a $1.8T loss and have decided to begin a huge, new benefits program for their employees and they just bought two gigantic companies whose track records are horrific.
I think everyone would be talking about that.
I’m sorry if you feel that this talk has hijacked your comment threads. I read this stuff and it’s so crazy that I feel the need to spout off.
One possible avenue of escape for china is of course to boost exports to Europe,India and Russia to compensate for lost US demand. Keeping the peg if the dollar falls would certainly achieve that and give the chinese room to eventually cut the dependance on the US and buying its debt.
Rien — economics is actually easy. and exchange rates consistently have an impact on trade flows, despite all the arguments that are put forward to contrary.
china’s move v hte euro (big depreciation) clearly had an impact of china’s trade with europe (dramatially increased the pace of export growth).
when RMB was appreciating v USD the pace of growth of china’s exports to US fell. As expected. furniture makers who had shifted to china started to think about shifting back to the US. Companies started factoring in higher future wage costs in china, which affectings future sourcing decisions. And so on.
and if you look at changes in the EUR/ USD they clearly have had an impact on the trade balance.
again, i frankly don’t get why the strong empirical evidence linking changes in the RER to changes in export growth (and thus the trade balance) is discounted …
at a minimum, please look at how the RMBEUR influenced trade with China before arguing that the XR doesn’t matter.
plus if china didn’t think the exchange rate mattered, it should raise the rmb now — and improve its terms of trade immediately. the rmb cost of all commodities will fall.
brick — pegging to the depreciating $ has diversified china’s trade but only intensifies its dependence on exports. moreover, china’s $ purchases reflect its $ peg not its trade composition; right now china lends much of its surplus with europe to the US. Your solution is no solution.
2fsh says :
>I find culture a generally bogus and meaningless explanation of things. It’s circular. Chinese behave in a way X because of their culture. What is Chinese culture, well it’s the way Chinese behave.
Hmm. Here in UK, when people die we don’t generally hire professional mourners to come in to bare their chests & weep & wail for us.
I understand there are parts of the world where this is perfectly normal.
Knowing this, I can make accurate predictions about people’s behaviour, given knowledge of their ‘culture’ ( ie the set of peculiar behavioural habits ingrained in that part of the world).
If I call a Buddhist Monk ( for eg) a flat faced a-hole, I could predict a different reaction than if i did ditto to a truck driver from Pasadena.
So knowledge of ‘culture’ ( set of expected behaviour patterns) can – at least in some circumstances – help make accurate predictions.
If the notion of culture is thus helpful predictivly speaking, I don’t agree that it can possibly be altogether vacuous.
To a Mayan, the idea of a making the odd human sacrifice would have been completely unremarkable.
To me, well, I’m just not going to go along with it.
Why ?
Culture.
I must confess I had not thought about what China would do with its European surplus and the damage it would do to the European economy would make it a non starter. China would however be paying more for its imports so I wonder if it could shift its surplus to Australia and Brazil. I guess that would not be a solution either because it would damage its export business. The implication might be that they would have to support the dollar whether they like it or not.
Brad,
Good for you pointing out the Euro-Yuan / trade part of the equation. It is all to often overlooked. It should also be noted that while China has been worried about the value of their holdings, they were buying USD when it was falling and ignoring the EURO while it was rising.
chaingangcharlie responds: Hmm. Here in UK, when people die we don’t generally hire professional mourners to come in to bare their chests & weep & wail for us.
I understand there are parts of the world where this is perfectly normal.
I’m ethnic Chinese, I’ve heard about professional mourners, but I’ve never met any or been to any funeral where they have been used. The Chinese people I know, would find the whole concept of professional mourning to be sacreligious and offensive, but I’m sure that given the diversity of Chinese and Chinese customs, there are parts of China and Chinese people for which this is normal. I just personally don’t know of any.
chaingangcharlie responds: I understand there are parts of the world where this is perfectly normal. Knowing this, I can make accurate predictions about people’s behaviour, given knowledge of their ‘culture’.
Maybe. Provided that you have your facts right, but I’ve seen a lot of total nonsense come out of this. If you start with the belief that Chinese in general hire professional mourners and start making conclusions based on this, then you end up with utter nonsense, since the Chinese that I know would find the concept of a professional mourner offensive.
chaingangcharlie responds: If I call a Buddhist Monk ( for eg) a flat faced a-hole, I could predict a different reaction than if i did ditto to a truck driver from Pasadena.
Maybe, but that has little to do with being Chinese since an American Buddhist monk would likely react better than a Chinese truck driver. But even that is a stereotype. I’ve known some nice truck drivers, and there are Buddhist monks I think would react badly, the Kung Fu Buddhist monks of the Shaolin Temple or the monks that were involved in the Tibetan demonstrations last year.
chaingangcharlie responds: If the notion of culture is thus helpful predictively speaking, I don’t agree that it can possibly be altogether vacuous.
First you need to not generalize and get the facts right. Starting from the premise that Chinese hire professional mourners, save lots of money, or don’t drink alcohol will get you utter nonsense, and invariably the one common trait that I find among people that do this sort of thing is that they don’t know that many Chinese, and they don’t actually check the facts to see if their predictions work.
Second, I’ve found that when “culture” does matter, it’s usually “professional culture.” An Buddhist monk may react differently than a truck driver, but that has more to do with being a monk and a truck driver than being Chinese or American.
Looking at stereotypes is interesting, but I don’t think it is that predictive. When I think “Chinese” the things that come to mind are physics professor, business tycoon, Wall Street banker, fundamentalist Christians. That tells you more about me than it does about China, which is my point.
The People’s Bank of China is behaving like a Shaolin Temple. They don’t want the dollar to crash till the Chinese export workers are home and dry, probably making electronic trinkets to monitor the temperature in Dutch greenhouses instead. Till the dreaded US Dollar crashes down, Americans will remain Standard and Poor – more than 38 million of them are living on food stamps, and 700,000 of them need to have their benefits extended because they haven’t got another job after a full year. Meanwhile there seems to be a secret Return of the Red Dragon treaty between the US and China. The markets are going up, or remaining steady, while the US Dollar is exhibiting what you might call as a Bungee Jump Pattern.
Interesting. Does the US really want China to be a democracy when it comes to Chinese purchases of US Treasury debt?
http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS85135630720090603
China’s Global Times newspaper, which is affiliated with the Communist party, said 87 percent of Chinese respondents in an public poll considered China’s dollar-denominated assets unsafe and opposed buying U.S. securities. “Ordinary Chinese people are discontent with the declining value of China’s huge foreign exchange reserves denominated in U.S. dollars,” the newspaper said.
Brad,
“Rien — economics is actually easy. and exchange rates consistently have an impact on trade flows, despite all the arguments that are put forward to contrary.
china’s move v hte euro (big depreciation) clearly had an impact of china’s trade with europe (dramatially increased the pace of export growth).
when RMB was appreciating v USD the pace of growth of china’s exports to US fell. As expected. furniture makers who had shifted to china started to think about shifting back to the US. Companies started factoring in higher future wage costs in china, which affectings future sourcing decisions. And so on.
and if you look at changes in the EUR/ USD they clearly have had an impact on the trade balance.’
Of course exchange rates have an influence. But the stuff has to be made somewhere, the factories are now in China and China’s surplus labor is still there and not easily redeployed. The fist response is to try and redeploy to other markets (buyers will not ccept higher import prices unless there is no alternative), the second to become cheaper.
I guess China will go for a higher CNY
(1)(trade weighted of course not only vs the USD)
(2) once it is pretty sure Chinese producers have some bargaining power except price. In fact if they did not reach that stage, their developmenta strategy would have failed: they would have produced a state with high output, persistently low wages and a low employment share. Not a recipe for industrialization with social stability.
A bilateral USD RMB depreciation while the EUR and the JPY stay where they are vs the USD would probably OK. A smallish CNY/ USD appreciation while the US dives further against (esp) JPY and EUR, looks problematic. One reason this Chinese public discourse of some form of mulitateral approach has emerged is that the others realize that the pressure on the Chinese is mounting, domestically and from the US (the crisis gives the US rare bargaining power)
and that the run the risk that China (in mercantilist terms, well understod in China, Europe and Japan) will rob the others to pay the US..
So, yes, I know that currency movements affect trade flows, even between China and its partners. Butwould expect those currency movements to be heavily contested, both domestically and from China’s other trade partners and that China would probably prefer some new (and more inclusive BW.
“Brad, I frankly don’t understand why the entire focus is on the fiscal deficit not the external balance”
Because people even in the professional world are caught up in the same type of thinking – albeit usually without the openly crazy rhetoric – that dominates the comments section of this very blog. China is ascendant and all-powerful, America is hurtling into oblivion. (And it’s already half-way there.) It doesn’t matter what data say, it doesn’t matter what factual, rational and logical work-throughs come up with. Somehow all scenarios must be made to fit into the China Up / America dead model. That’s the buzz, that’s all anyone wants to talk about, that’s all anyone wants to read about. “Will the CNY become the new currency? Oh no!/Awesome!” “What convoluted fiction will send America to third-world status, because I’ll believe it!” Or DJC’s daily comments explaining how stupid the “stupid Americans” are how their country is doomed. The level of discourse here seems to be the same as is found in opinion columns, news articles, financial investment newsletters, and on the trading floor (either held opinion or catered-to opinion).
It’s next to impossible to bring context to a popular story.
2Fish
“Today’s solutions causes tommorrow’s problems”
I very much like that sentence but I think you need to take it a little further.
As today’s solutions require far more drastic interventions than in the past, will our problems tomorrow be more challenging too and require even more drastic measures?