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	<title>Comments on: The savings glut.  Controversy guaranteed.</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:40:10 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Sherman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-134541</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Sherman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-134541</guid>
		<description>Interesting that the chart of Chinese saving as a % of Chinese GDP mirrors the price of spot gold over the past 20 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting that the chart of Chinese saving as a % of Chinese GDP mirrors the price of spot gold over the past 20 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Key Trends in Globalisation &#187; The real reason global imbalances have declined &#8211; factual economic trends in the US and China</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-134440</link>
		<dc:creator>Key Trends in Globalisation &#187; The real reason global imbalances have declined &#8211; factual economic trends in the US and China</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 20:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-134440</guid>
		<description>[...] commentator, by Stephen Green of Standard Chartered, by David Cohen of Action Economics, by Brad Setser, by Michael Pettis, Professor of Finance in Peking University, and numerous other [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] commentator, by Stephen Green of Standard Chartered, by David Cohen of Action Economics, by Brad Setser, by Michael Pettis, Professor of Finance in Peking University, and numerous other [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Asian Savings Glut Hypothesis, and Why it Matters</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-134373</link>
		<dc:creator>Asian Savings Glut Hypothesis, and Why it Matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 15:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-134373</guid>
		<description>[...] American consumer or the beetling Chinese saver. Three months ago Brad Setser discussed all this in one of his blog entries that (inevitably) drew more comments than most, and as usual he provides a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] American consumer or the beetling Chinese saver. Three months ago Brad Setser discussed all this in one of his blog entries that (inevitably) drew more comments than most, and as usual he provides a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yet another discussion on the Asian savings glut hypothesis, and why it matters</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-134370</link>
		<dc:creator>Yet another discussion on the Asian savings glut hypothesis, and why it matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-134370</guid>
		<description>[...] consumer or the beetling Chinese saver.  Three months ago Brad Setser discussed all this in one of his blog entries that (inevitably) drew more comments than most, and as usual he provides a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] consumer or the beetling Chinese saver.  Three months ago Brad Setser discussed all this in one of his blog entries that (inevitably) drew more comments than most, and as usual he provides a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Laobaixing</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-133032</link>
		<dc:creator>Laobaixing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 04:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-133032</guid>
		<description>Simon,

A bit late, but excellent post. Just the idea of having an interest rate bottom. But wait until the next boom. But I agree that the 2001 downturn should have been allowed to run its course, however painful for the politcos of the day. That would have saved the world a lot of trouble.

Perhaps that is why the Chinese are very publicly looking for alternatives to a reserve currency managed by a (possibly irresponsible) national government interested only in its domestic electability. Every modern bank regulation theorist is familiar with the &quot;gambling for survival phenomenon&quot; that usually impoverishes outsiders. Looks that is exactly what the GWB gvt did and no doubt the present gvt will do if the circumstances rquire.

But that is also the main reason why no US gvt would sit by and let &quot;the world&quot; take away its main tool of domestic economic policy. I am sure the Chinese are aware of this and what they may want is something far less ambitious (yet costly for the US). It would be interesting to know what that might be. It cannnot be anssurance of policy quality because that would not be a credible promise (no democratic gvt can restrict successors economic policy or ability to change laws,  except by constitutional change). Perhaps some form of guarantee. Leveraging the IMF as seems to be in the process now has limits and is in essence a crazy idea. Perhaps a new type of SDR, with the CNY in it and some liberation of China&#039;s capital account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon,</p>
<p>A bit late, but excellent post. Just the idea of having an interest rate bottom. But wait until the next boom. But I agree that the 2001 downturn should have been allowed to run its course, however painful for the politcos of the day. That would have saved the world a lot of trouble.</p>
<p>Perhaps that is why the Chinese are very publicly looking for alternatives to a reserve currency managed by a (possibly irresponsible) national government interested only in its domestic electability. Every modern bank regulation theorist is familiar with the &#8220;gambling for survival phenomenon&#8221; that usually impoverishes outsiders. Looks that is exactly what the GWB gvt did and no doubt the present gvt will do if the circumstances rquire.</p>
<p>But that is also the main reason why no US gvt would sit by and let &#8220;the world&#8221; take away its main tool of domestic economic policy. I am sure the Chinese are aware of this and what they may want is something far less ambitious (yet costly for the US). It would be interesting to know what that might be. It cannnot be anssurance of policy quality because that would not be a credible promise (no democratic gvt can restrict successors economic policy or ability to change laws,  except by constitutional change). Perhaps some form of guarantee. Leveraging the IMF as seems to be in the process now has limits and is in essence a crazy idea. Perhaps a new type of SDR, with the CNY in it and some liberation of China&#8217;s capital account.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-132955</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-132955</guid>
		<description>Greenspan lowered interest rates to avert a downturn AND try to maintain high employment in the US. It worked. Unfortunately the buckets of money made available didn’t find useful effect, instead they sparked a bubble in housing. Inflation was kept low, because of the high productivity, IN CHINA. Unfortunately high productivity in China does not help the US.

If there had been a significant and sustained downturn in the US from 2001 onwards it would have forced household savings rates UP, forced capital allocation into areas of TRUE internationally competitive PRODUCTIVITY, slowed China’s growth rate and potentially improved capital allocation in that country too.

In interesting corollary to the current discussion about regulation implied by this analysis is that more than likely improved regulation is not the full answer. Curbed credit expansion and closer supervision of credit agencies while important are probably not a complete solution. Ironically higher interest rates may well be. More than likely all this fuss could be avoided if it was not permisable for the FED to lower interest rates to below lets say 4%.

If no one can come up with a sensible plan to allocate capital effectively and pay interest at 4% its probably not worth while doing it.

I question the assertion that increased savings rates result in lower interest rates. Is the short end of the curve controlled by central banks or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greenspan lowered interest rates to avert a downturn AND try to maintain high employment in the US. It worked. Unfortunately the buckets of money made available didn’t find useful effect, instead they sparked a bubble in housing. Inflation was kept low, because of the high productivity, IN CHINA. Unfortunately high productivity in China does not help the US.</p>
<p>If there had been a significant and sustained downturn in the US from 2001 onwards it would have forced household savings rates UP, forced capital allocation into areas of TRUE internationally competitive PRODUCTIVITY, slowed China’s growth rate and potentially improved capital allocation in that country too.</p>
<p>In interesting corollary to the current discussion about regulation implied by this analysis is that more than likely improved regulation is not the full answer. Curbed credit expansion and closer supervision of credit agencies while important are probably not a complete solution. Ironically higher interest rates may well be. More than likely all this fuss could be avoided if it was not permisable for the FED to lower interest rates to below lets say 4%.</p>
<p>If no one can come up with a sensible plan to allocate capital effectively and pay interest at 4% its probably not worth while doing it.</p>
<p>I question the assertion that increased savings rates result in lower interest rates. Is the short end of the curve controlled by central banks or not?</p>
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		<title>By: Interesting Articles : Gordian Knots</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-132839</link>
		<dc:creator>Interesting Articles : Gordian Knots</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-132839</guid>
		<description>[...] The cautious approach to fixing banks will not workBrad Setser (Council on Foreign Relations): The savings glut. Controversy guaranteedAnatole Kaletsky (Times Online): How the ECB’s fig leaf has completely withered awayWolfgang [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The cautious approach to fixing banks will not workBrad Setser (Council on Foreign Relations): The savings glut. Controversy guaranteedAnatole Kaletsky (Times Online): How the ECB’s fig leaf has completely withered awayWolfgang [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Too Much Fed</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-132826</link>
		<dc:creator>Too Much Fed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-132826</guid>
		<description>bsetser: Sorry about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bsetser: Sorry about that.</p>
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		<title>By: pebird</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-132794</link>
		<dc:creator>pebird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-132794</guid>
		<description>Why the focus on excess savings instead of scarcity?
  Which tail is wagging which dog here?


Didn&#039;t the export of manufacturing to the Far East basically guarantee a savings glut/scarcity imbalance?

The entire global glut and credit expansion looks like a generational scheme to repatriate profits while bypassing virtually all workers and avoid taxation.

What did anyone expect - eliminate large volume of decent income jobs in the US - replace 75% of lost income with cheap goods.  No middle class wage pressures in US - check. Inflation at &quot;3%&quot; even though imported consumer  goods are roughly 15-25% cheaper.  Hmmm - can&#039;t be the  volatile energy and food, that&#039;s always excluded.

Pump up trade volume because incremental unit margin decreases.  Over production of retail, electronics, toys, apparel, automobiles, hedge fund managers.  WalMart becomes largest US private employer - someone in HR forgets about health insurance.

China gets to invest in Soviet-scale infrastructure projects, with better architects.  Workers gets taste of Western lifestyle - after 15 years back to the farm - sorry no work.  Specialize in producing things not designed nor needed in China.  Basically global wage arbitrage game.

Pile up of dollars in Chinese central banks - big f*ing surprise.  What to do?  Lets call it something that sounds really bad - like a glutton eating all those dollars disappearing from  US worker paychecks.  What a waste of the last quarter century.  At least the east coast of China looks like Las Vegas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why the focus on excess savings instead of scarcity?<br />
  Which tail is wagging which dog here?</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t the export of manufacturing to the Far East basically guarantee a savings glut/scarcity imbalance?</p>
<p>The entire global glut and credit expansion looks like a generational scheme to repatriate profits while bypassing virtually all workers and avoid taxation.</p>
<p>What did anyone expect &#8211; eliminate large volume of decent income jobs in the US &#8211; replace 75% of lost income with cheap goods.  No middle class wage pressures in US &#8211; check. Inflation at &#8220;3%&#8221; even though imported consumer  goods are roughly 15-25% cheaper.  Hmmm &#8211; can&#8217;t be the  volatile energy and food, that&#8217;s always excluded.</p>
<p>Pump up trade volume because incremental unit margin decreases.  Over production of retail, electronics, toys, apparel, automobiles, hedge fund managers.  WalMart becomes largest US private employer &#8211; someone in HR forgets about health insurance.</p>
<p>China gets to invest in Soviet-scale infrastructure projects, with better architects.  Workers gets taste of Western lifestyle &#8211; after 15 years back to the farm &#8211; sorry no work.  Specialize in producing things not designed nor needed in China.  Basically global wage arbitrage game.</p>
<p>Pile up of dollars in Chinese central banks &#8211; big f*ing surprise.  What to do?  Lets call it something that sounds really bad &#8211; like a glutton eating all those dollars disappearing from  US worker paychecks.  What a waste of the last quarter century.  At least the east coast of China looks like Las Vegas.</p>
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		<title>By: The List: July 1, 2009 &#171; candescogroup.com</title>
		<link>http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/06/30/the-savings-glut-controversy-guaranteed/#comment-132789</link>
		<dc:creator>The List: July 1, 2009 &#171; candescogroup.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/?p=4700#comment-132789</guid>
		<description>[...] What we talk about when we talk about savings glut in emerging markets: &#8220;the chain of risk taking that allowed emerging market savers to finance heavy borrowing by US households didn’t result in a stable system&#8221; (Brad Setser: Follow the Money) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What we talk about when we talk about savings glut in emerging markets: &#8220;the chain of risk taking that allowed emerging market savers to finance heavy borrowing by US households didn’t result in a stable system&#8221; (Brad Setser: Follow the Money) [...]</p>
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